The Politics Thread

[William the White]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

And Cable - who is looking twitchy, nervous, and very unsaintly - makes an unconvincing fig leaf for the bankers party.

[Lord Kangana]

Its quite interesting that Wikileaks had Cameron down as a "lightweight". Was it the yanks or the ruskies? It shows what I know about politics, because I thought he'd got his statesmanship nailed down, and had actually quietly gone about doing a good job on the wolrd stage.

Not convinced about him as a domestic politican, but lets be honest here, he looks like a leviathan beside gorgeous George and Nicky Clegg.

And we're fooked at the moment. As is most of Europe. We certainly got our interesting times.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

The whole thing is a big failure of marketing.

Asking students to pay nothing, and graduates, those who will make up the wealthiest quintile of the population, to pay more to fund education, but only once they have reached a higher income level than in the previous rules, sounds suspiciously like a progressive measure to me.

Hey ho, thank goodness we have all these selfless students, none of whom will be affected by the new regime, to point out this manifest injustice.

[William the White]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

The whole thing is a big failure of marketing.

Asking students to pay nothing, and graduated, those who will make up the wealthiest quintile of the population to pay more to fund education sounds suspiciously like a progressive measure to me.

Hey ho, thanks goodness we have all these selfless students, none of whom will be affected by the new regime, to point out this manifest injustice.

I'm very glad to see you back - if only to prove there are some with brains on the right.

Why do you quote my post and then not deal with its content?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

The whole thing is a big failure of marketing.

Asking students to pay nothing, and graduated, those who will make up the wealthiest quintile of the population to pay more to fund education sounds suspiciously like a progressive measure to me.

Hey ho, thanks goodness we have all these selfless students, none of whom will be affected by the new regime, to point out this manifest injustice.

I'm very glad to see you back - if only to prove there are some with brains on the right.

Why do you quote my post and then not deal with its content?

Urgh, did you have to quote the typo-ridden version of my post, and do violence to my claim to 'some brains'?!

I indirectly engaged with your post... my theory is that the 'war' is, at least in part, a failure of the marketing of the matter that forms the basis of the anger of the 'people'.

[William the White]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

The whole thing is a big failure of marketing.

Asking students to pay nothing, and graduated, those who will make up the wealthiest quintile of the population to pay more to fund education sounds suspiciously like a progressive measure to me.

Hey ho, thanks goodness we have all these selfless students, none of whom will be affected by the new regime, to point out this manifest injustice.

I'm very glad to see you back - if only to prove there are some with brains on the right.

Why do you quote my post and then not deal with its content?

Urgh, did you have to quote the typo-ridden version of my post, and do violence to my claim to 'some brains'?!

I indirectly engaged with your post... my theory is that the 'war' is, at least in part, a failure of the marketing of the matter that forms the basis of the anger of the 'people'.

I feel that's surprisingly shallow. But 'in part' you may well be right. I suspect that there will - in the near future - be more failures of marketing. It's a feature of Tory rule.

[Hoboh]

A surprisingly quiet thread recently, given pretty momentous events.

So - to offer a thought - today showed that the Tories are the same old disaster. The government, once again, at war in the streets with its people. Not seen for twenty years and in less than six months we're back to the same old place again... Tory Britain - old Etonians running the cabinet and riot police in the streets...

The whole thing is a big failure of marketing.

Asking students to pay nothing, and graduated, those who will make up the wealthiest quintile of the population to pay more to fund education sounds suspiciously like a progressive measure to me.

Hey ho, thanks goodness we have all these selfless students, none of whom will be affected by the new regime, to point out this manifest injustice.

I'm very glad to see you back - if only to prove there are some with brains on the right.

Why do you quote my post and then not deal with its content?

You are getting cheeky there matey
Anyway enough of this I'm wrapping up well and off for a "tramp" round Rivi Castle way looking for some hoodies to shove in the water!!!

[Bruce Rioja]

Anyway enough of this I'm wrapping up well and off for a "tramp" round Rivi Castle way looking for some hoodies to shove in the water!!!

Give 'em a belt from me too, fella.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I feel that's surprisingly shallow. But 'in part' you may well be right. I suspect that there will - in the near future - be more failures of marketing. It's a feature of Tory rule.

I don't think it's 'shallow' to say that the dissemination of information about this new policy was handled badly at the start, thus leading to a build up of angry momentum that quickly became unstoppable and self-feeding.

[William the White]

I feel that's surprisingly shallow. But 'in part' you may well be right. I suspect that there will - in the near future - be more failures of marketing. It's a feature of Tory rule.

I don't think it's 'shallow' to say that the dissemination of information about this new policy was handled badly at the start, thus leading to a build up of angry momentum that quickly became unstoppable and self-feeding.

It's very difficult to market a broken pledge. The fury is of the height it is because of that. In my view the policy is wholly wrong but its Labour antecedents never provoked this level of open hostility. People hate being lied to. And the best marketing in the world would be seen as clever lying.

I think you can award the Tories high marks for low cunning. They've destroyed the Lib Dems brilliantly while being their best friends.

[thebish]

I feel that's surprisingly shallow. But 'in part' you may well be right. I suspect that there will - in the near future - be more failures of marketing. It's a feature of Tory rule.

I don't think it's 'shallow' to say that the dissemination of information about this new policy was handled badly at the start, thus leading to a build up of angry momentum that quickly became unstoppable and self-feeding.

I suspect that there are many and various reasons for the angry momentum. It is noticeable how many LibDems in particular have been peddling this "they just haven't read the policy properly" line over the last few days...

I don't really think that is the key to the anger. I think people understand it all too well, in the main we are not stupid, though politicians like to imagine we are.

The Labour party introduced tuition fees - and there was no rioting in the streets... this makes me wonder if this is about something else other than "policy" and whether it is understood or not, and I think it might be two things..

1. anger at the LibDems so easily and blatantly selling out a clear and unambiguous pledge - a party commitment - and a succession of individual signed promises... "I pledge..." (yes - the labour party had a manifesto commitment - but NOT with the personal pledge emphasis that the LibDems had...)

2. anger at the tories - well, for being tories - and a collective memory (deserved or underserved) that they will basically bugger the poor and give a leg up to their rich chums, and any perceived sign that they are doing this again will lead to violence on the streets.

3. actually - three - I have been on many big London demos - (not this one) - and it is true that there is a travelling and easily summonable element of "anarchist" (to use the word loosely because they do!) yobs who simply love the opportunity for a bit of violent showboating and usually don't really give a monkeys about the actual cause being protested...

[William the White]

I wouldn't want to traduce the genuine Anarchists though, bish. I was very impressed by the young woman from Whitechapel Anarchists who was interviewed on the box yesterday. Anarchism is a serious and rather wonderful idealist political current, that I was attracted to hugely in my far-off younger days.

and the anarchist sections of any demo were always fun...

[hisroyalgingerness]

I don't think the anger is towards Tories for legging up their rich mates. Today's youth are far too selfish and insular to care about such things. Their problem is that they are affected. That they expected something from society for free and all of a sudden a group of toff scapegoats have taken it from them and presented an idea that means some may pay more.

There's resentment towards Clegg over his "promise" of standing against fee rises. They voted for him for this exact reason, but given he was the only party to stake this claim then in truth it isn't actually all that popular. Distant 3rd was it, Lib Dems finished. Tut tut, students.

In three weeks they've ensured any reasonable amount of sympathy has evaporated with their ridiculous antics. People are looking at the detail and considering that it may well indeed be a progressive policy and actually not that large a proportion will be affected.

[superjohnmcginlay]

I feel that's surprisingly shallow. But 'in part' you may well be right. I suspect that there will - in the near future - be more failures of marketing. It's a feature of Tory rule.

I don't think it's 'shallow' to say that the dissemination of information about this new policy was handled badly at the start, thus leading to a build up of angry momentum that quickly became unstoppable and self-feeding.

I suspect that there are many and various reasons for the angry momentum. It is noticeable how many LibDems in particular have been peddling this "they just haven't read the policy properly" line over the last few days...

I don't really think that is the key to the anger. I think people understand it all too well, in the main we are not stupid, though politicians like to imagine we are.

The Labour party introduced tuition fees - and there was no rioting in the streets... this makes me wonder if this is about something else other than "policy" and whether it is understood or not, and I think it might be two things..

1. anger at the LibDems so easily and blatantly selling out a clear and unambiguous pledge - a party commitment - and a succession of individual signed promises... "I pledge..." (yes - the labour party had a manifesto commitment - but NOT with the personal pledge emphasis that the LibDems had...)

2. anger at the tories - well, for being tories - and a collective memory (deserved or underserved) that they will basically bugger the poor and give a leg up to their rich chums, and any perceived sign that they are doing this again will lead to violence on the streets.

3. actually - three - I have been on many big London demos - (not this one) - and it is true that there is a travelling and easily summonable element of "anarchist" (to use the word loosely because they do!) yobs who simply love the opportunity for a bit of violent showboating and usually don't really give a monkeys about the actual cause being protested...

I think the unions are helping to stoke up resentment as well. The Mirror is full of shit like this:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/n ... -22738638/

[thebish]

I wouldn't want to traduce the genuine Anarchists though, bish.

indeed not, William, which is why I was careful to write:

"anarchist" (to use the word loosely because they do!)

I am not referring to idealogues nor even people with a vague notion of what an actual anarchist is - but, rather, those who would (under the label "anarchist") simply enjoy a day of showboating violence in the vague idea that anarchism=smashing stuff.

Thinking anarchists would view them with contempt (I hope)
just like
thinking atheists quietly shake their heads at Richard Dawkins
and
thinking muslims despair at Abu Hamza al-Masri
and
thinking christians tear their hair out whenever someone on a radio phone-in introduces themselves by saying "I'm a bible-believing Christian..."

[thebish]

I don't think the anger is towards Tories for legging up their rich mates. Today's youth are far too selfish and insular to care about such things. Their problem is that they are affected.

hmmm... except that's not really true... the new fee structure won't start until 2012....

[hisroyalgingerness]

Then WTF are they protesting about?

[Prufrock]

I don't think the anger is towards Tories for legging up their rich mates. Today's youth are far too selfish and insular to care about such things. Their problem is that they are affected.

hmmm... except that's not really true... the new fee structure won't start until 2012....

Exactamondo, which is why this whole 'they are affected' selfish rant is bollocks. They are protesting because despite it not affecting them, they think it wrong. Imagine that. And they've been lied to as well. I'd be pissed off.

[CAPSLOCK]

And they've been lied to as well. I'd be pissed off.

This is you, isn't it

[CAPSLOCK]

Then WTF are they protesting about?

Oh, fcuking keep up

The nasty Liberals lied to them