Referees

[TANGODANCER]

A BIG pet subject of mine this.
I think the referees have an impossible task these days and I firmly believe that their job won't get any easier until the players' honesty returns. I fear that will never happen as diving, cheating and dishonesty in all it's forms is now part and parcel of the game.
I saw Brian Moore (the ex Rugby Union player) on Celebrity Mastermind the other day, and he was incensed by the "cancer" that the players had brought into football with their dishonesty, and that they (the Football authorities) couldn't see that was ruining the game. And this had totally affected his enjoyment of a game he used to love.
I totally agree with that view.

Vey relevent, but technology would surely help to expose the cheats as well as defining correct/incorrect decisions.

[boltonboris]

Vey relevent, but technology would surely help to expose the cheats as well as defining correct/incorrect decisions.

That has to start with the Premier League bosses. Players aren't retrospectively punished for cheating.. So why stop, when they can get away with it?

[Tombwfc]

Indeed, retrospectively punishing players for cheating isn't foolproof by any means, but it's a lot better than the haphazard system they've got now.

It's an unbelieveable thing to expect a person to take one full-speed view of an incident and then decide off that whether or not to call a professional sportsman a cheat.

[Bijou Bob]

I'll come clean first and admit that, yes my name's Bob and......sniff........stifled sob.............I am a referee.

I attended a meeting at the FA last year at which a prominent Premier League referee gave a speech and had a question and answer session. I stuck my hand up and asked "Why is it that you professional referees let us down each and every week". He asked for clarification, to which I replied "Last week on MOTD, Wayne Rooney walked past you and called you a "Cheating cnut". You didnt have to be the worlds best lip reader to see that. You didn't even yellow card him for questioning your integrity". "The following day, i refereed an under 16's match at which a player said the same thing to me and I red carded him, only to get dog's abuse off his dad and team coach as, and I quote, Wayne Rooney does that every week and last night he didn't even get booked for it"

I expected a defence based on "I didn't hear him" but instead got "You don't understand the pressure these players are under and sometimes, it's just banter" which pished me right off as it was patronising garbage.

Until the referees on the Prem list have the balls to impose the basic rules as written (and no one will ever tell me that "You cheating cnut" isn't insulting or abusive) and stop regarding players as their equals or mates, then nothing will change.

[bobo the clown]

I do try to give the ref's the benefit of the doubt, but there's no doubt that they get influenced by the bigger clubs, bigger names, bigger crowds .... but that will ALWAYS have been the case, forever.

The technology arguement remains in my view that I would not want to reduce the fluidity of the game any more than can be avoided and I'd prefer the game to be as close to the grass-roots as it can be. I know others disagree, that's just my view.

I would love retrospective action .... esp. on diving & belly-flopping. Brian Moore is correct, it's become a cancer.

I'd also like (not going to happen, of course) to see the meeja cut them some slack. It's OK that they can see something , in slow-mo, from 15 different angles, with no pressure .... but the ref's make fast, immediate decisions in real time from one (two, if the linesman sees it too) angle only and under vast pressure.

However, I have to ask, in my view after all the hoo-ha about 'professional referee's' and the great machine they've created ... are they one iota better than the ref's of old ?? Not in my view.

[seanworth]

To add to your first statement Bobo I still feel the football organizations add to the problem. When referees make controversial decisions against big clubs they generally get punished. When making similar calls against small clubs rarely any action is taken. If you are a referee what does that tell you? Also red cards against top players are way more likely to be recinded than against your average joe (eg Terry, Lampard, Gerrard).

I support retroactively punishing players for cheating. If players know that they can be suspended for diving or faking some sort of contact they will be less likely to do so. Refs will then have an easier time calling a fair game.

[TANGODANCER]

However, I have to ask, in my view after all the hoo-ha about 'professional referee's' and the great machine they've created ... are they one iota better than the ref's of old ?? Not in my view.

Then again Bobo, they don't referee the "players of old" to whom cheating was almost unheard of. What they do have to contend with is how opposing fans are almost certain to see the same thing differently because (and yes, I'm saying the influx of foreign players and the need to justify their overblown wages, introduced that element in the main) that' a fact of life. Penalty..joy/penalty..despair to opposing fans. What replays show to be the truth of an incident has little bearing on the field when human error is involved and a decision given. It just strengthens the case for technology to match the differences between then and now.

[Lofthouse Lower]

Let's professionalise them. Pay them £70,000 per year = that'll fix EVERYTHING

[Owen_Coyle]

I agree with everything that has been said since my post on this topic and the suggestions on how to rid us of it. I would not be a fan of using technology but if anything can be done to eradicate this then bring it on. I'll try anything !!

But I still go back to my original argument that the root cause of this "cancer" is placed firmly at the feet of the players. They are the ones being dishonest; they are the ones playing; they are the ones that we fans are watching and cheering on; they are the ones who the referees are trying to control.

Now we can all bring up reasons for them being like this; the money in the game now, fame, stupidity... whatever !! But the root cause is that they are (basically) cheating and any tweaks by refs or football authorities will be futile unless the players become honest first. Once that is in place (God knows how!!) we can address the other problems. But at least then hopefully all refereeing decisions could be based on kosher situations and not on simulation or "cheating" in all it's forms.

This "cancer" has been happening gradually over 30 years now and it has reached epidemic proportions now. But, as I said before, it is part of the game now and has been for many years and I doubt it can ever be regressed. Anyone who disagrees with that view should watch kids football matches on the local park. They do the same diving and play-acting that they see their idols do on TV every week; why wouldn't they when they see it and accept it as normal. So it would need a massive sustained change over several years in their "idols" ways before that would eventually "catch on" and all players, from the kids upwards, also followed suit.

[Tombwfc]

While I agree, I do think it's worth mentioning that the players aren't wholly responsible for this.

What was Diouf's punishment for shamelessly cheating to get us a win at Blackbun? He was a hero with the fans and I doubt Big Sam was too bothered about it either. Are there any examples of cheating players being punished by their club, or getting stick from their own fans?

So long as managers, fans and players can hide behind 'everyone else does it', it's not going to go anywhere. We're all complicit in it.

[Lofthouse Lower]

Then didn't Diouf once get sent off for swearing at a referee?

It's easy to send off those from a smaller club - they wouldn't dare do it to Rooney.

[Lord Kangana]

Absolutely. So lets send a DVD in and hope that we can influence them to give more decisions for us than against us.

I believe thats where the discussion started anyway.

[Owen_Coyle]

While I agree, I do think it's worth mentioning that the players aren't wholly responsible for this.

What was Diouf's punishment for shamelessly cheating to get us a win at Blackbun? He was a hero with the fans and I doubt Big Sam was too bothered about it either. Are there any examples of cheating players being punished by their club, or getting stick from their own fans?

So long as managers, fans and players can hide behind 'everyone else does it', it's not going to go anywhere. We're all complicit in it.

Totally agree Tom. That is why I doubt we can ever turn it round as it is part of football culture. It has been a gradual thing over many years. If Diouf, or any of the players that "earn" 90% of fouls that are given today had done that 30+ years ago they would have been laughed off the park, and probably been severely reprimanded by the authorities for doing it.

But nowadays players, managers and (most !!) fans alike are baying for blood every time anyone hits the turf. But you are not telling me that Big Sam, and any other player that played up to the 70s (for example) doesn't know, and secretly cringe inside, every time they see players falling over at will. Of course they will never admit that as it is not "the right thing to do" to admit the game is dishonest, especially when it is one of your own team doing it and you have just got a penalty from it.

[bobo the clown]

Well it would help if the phrase "he was entitled to go down" was used a little less as well, when what they mean is "... there was the faintest touch and there was every possibility that he'd get a penalty if he hit the deck like a dying swan, so who can blame him if it cheats a penalty out of the overawed git with the whistle !"

[Lofthouse Lower]

Agreed. To hear people say 'he WON a penalty' makes my piss boil

[Owen_Coyle]

Well it would help if the phrase "he was entitled to go down" was used a little less as well, when what they mean is "... there was the faintest touch and there was every possibility that he'd get a penalty if he hit the deck like a dying swan, so who can blame him if it cheats a penalty out of the overawed git with the whistle !"

Exactly Bobo, and this by experts and pundits who know in their heart of hearts that they are cheating.

As an example, Andy Gray (bless him !!) was a player who would jump into a brick wall to win a header; played it hard and expected it hard back. Yet I have heard him use that phrase many times in his (now defunct) Sky role, when he knows deep down that he is talking bollocks and misleading the viewers every bit as much as the players he is talking about.

[Owen_Coyle]

Agreed. To hear people say 'he WON a penalty' makes my piss boil

Me too Lofty.

Another I hate even more is word "simulation"; said by so-called experts as though it is a much sought after football skill that only the top players can ever perform. And to be applauded apparently ??

[Prufrock]

While I agree, I do think it's worth mentioning that the players aren't wholly responsible for this.

What was Diouf's punishment for shamelessly cheating to get us a win at Blackbun? He was a hero with the fans and I doubt Big Sam was too bothered about it either. Are there any examples of cheating players being punished by their club, or getting stick from their own fans?

So long as managers, fans and players can hide behind 'everyone else does it', it's not going to go anywhere. We're all complicit in it.

Totally agree Tom. That is why I doubt we can ever turn it round as it is part of football culture. It has been a gradual thing over many years. If Diouf, or any of the players that "earn" 90% of fouls that are given today had done that 30+ years ago they would have been laughed off the park, and probably been severely reprimanded by the authorities for doing it.

But nowadays players, managers and (most !!) fans alike are baying for blood every time anyone hits the turf. But you are not telling me that Big Sam, and any other player that played up to the 70s (for example) doesn't know, and secretly cringe inside, every time they see players falling over at will. Of course they will never admit that as it is not "the right thing to do" to admit the game is dishonest, especially when it is one of your own team doing it and you have just got a penalty from it.

How much of it is actually players cheating more though? How much of it IS in fact the benefit of the slow motion extra replays. I was at Ewood for the Diouf incident and it looked a stonewall penalty to me at the time. Big Sam himself said the idea that foreign players brought over diving was laughable as it was going on every week when he was playing. If this cheating can con referees at full speed now, I can't see any reason it couldn't have conned spectators at full speed thirty years ago. I'm not saying there was the same amount, rather, unless you were a player, it is difficult to know.

[CAPSLOCK]

Why can we not be told the assessors mark?

If, let's say, Clattenberg got anything over 3/10 on Saturday, let us know and I'll stop wasting my hard earned, cos if he refereed that game well, I've had enough

[Owen_Coyle]

How much of it is actually players cheating more though? How much of it IS in fact the benefit of the slow motion extra replays. I was at Ewood for the Diouf incident and it looked a stonewall penalty to me at the time. Big Sam himself said the idea that foreign players brought over diving was laughable as it was going on every week when he was playing. If this cheating can con referees at full speed now, I can't see any reason it couldn't have conned spectators at full speed thirty years ago. I'm not saying there was the same amount, rather, unless you were a player, it is difficult to know.

Pru, you don't need to have played the game long, at any level, to know that most fouls these days are given because of some form of dishonesty. Admittedly, they are all good at it now, why wouldn't they be as there is more effort and time spent in each match these days trying to get free-kicks and penalties than actually trying to score.

But the fact that they are all good at the Art of Diving makes the referees job impossible and this has also long since meant that the Art of Tackling is dead, as anything other than the completely clean, two feet on the ground, not from the side, not from the front, not with any aggression, not with any show of malice etc. is not allowed. And, as I have said, this has been a very gradual transition to the farce we have today.

Plus this is so much part of the game today that the ref, who has only once to see any incident and has to make an on-the-spot decision, then also has the added pressure of a full stadium (half who think it's a foul, and the other half who don't), two sets of players and managers (with the same aims), and the wrath of the media who can show any incident from any angle such that they would have Mother Teresa found guilty, on his back and venting their anger.

I am not saying there was no cheating 30 or 40 years ago, but anyone who is old enough to compare the game back then to the game today knows that the integrity of the game today is a sham in comparison. Anyone who can't see that is either blinkered or is of an age where they have not seen football in any other way.