Today I'm angry about.....

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13343824

This.

So what they're saying is the rich can buy their ticket but the poor have to go through the cattle market lottery?

Ridiculous. And the "rich" places would not come out of a Universities quota so they will all compete for as many of these students as they can, in the same way as they now compete for foreign students who pay the lucrative fees.

I love the way this is dressed up as "helping out the poor little oiks", when in fact it will only help those with "money". And I also love the way they say "but these students will still need to attain high standards in grades to get in". Of course, I can see the Universities now, making sure that all these kids are "up to standard". Those VC's won't be seeing the £ signs at all, just making sure that Tarquin and Jemima have the necessary skills (whats 1+1, 3? no but thats close enough you're in!).

Fook off you elitist tw*ts!

I agree that this is wrong but playing Devils Advocate, if a percentage of rich/foreign students pay the full amount so that the poorer students pay slightly less, that isn't such a bad thing.

On the other hand, surely you're not that naive to believe this hasn't been going on for generations.
Tarquin's father, "What no place for Tarquin this year? Here have a hefty donation. Oh there is a place now. Thank you".

It might have "gone on" but not that widely. This is just opening the flood gates up, in the same way it has for foreign students.

Thing is, your theory about subsidies doesn't work as Student Fees are all going up to 9K in most cases anyways! Ok they will be loans for the "oiks" but even so they'll still have to pay them back once their working (which I don't have an issue with, thats fair enough).

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

[CrazyHorse]

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

How is that even remotely the same?
Getting a degree isn't life threatening but needing a new kidney is. In the same way that a new kidney won't help get you a fast track promotion from salad washer to burger flipper but y'know four years "hard study" will.

[Bruce Rioja]

What? You refute the irrefutable gibberings of BWFCI, Hoss? Crikey!

[BWFC_Insane]

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

How is that even remotely the same?
Getting a degree isn't life threatening but needing a new kidney is. In the same way that a new kidney won't help get you a fast track promotion from salad washer to burger flipper but y'know four years "hard study" will.

Not necessarily "life threatening" at all. But that aside, I never said it was the "same" I merely postulated what having money might help you with next.

In the same way as education won't be so much about the most academically gifted but about who can afford to pay, why would a kidney transplant necessarily be about clinical need?

[superjohnmcginlay]

Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

Thought you could do that anyway with private hospitals.



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 105103791/

[malcd1]

Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

Thought you could do that anyway with private hospitals.



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 105103791/

[Bruce Rioja]

In the same way as education won't be so much about the most academically gifted but about who can afford to pay.

Rubbish, but anyway, if successful parents decide to spend their own money on providing their offspring with the finest education that they can provide, then I for one find that quite commendable.
It's their money to do with as they chose. The fact that this seemingly enrages you seems strange, especially as it has feck all to do with you!

[boltonboris]

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

How is that even remotely the same?
Getting a degree isn't life threatening but needing a new kidney is. In the same way that a new kidney won't help get you a fast track promotion from salad washer to burger flipper but y'know four years "hard study" will.

Not necessarily "life threatening" at all. But that aside, I never said it was the "same" I merely postulated what having money might help you with next.

In the same way as education won't be so much about the most academically gifted but about who can afford to pay, why would a kidney transplant necessarily be about clinical need?

Hasn't that always been the case?? Ie; the more money you havem, the better quality of things you can afford.

Be it Education, Healthcare (Bupa anyone?) or general life style. Money has always talked and it always will

[CrazyHorse]

Like money hasn't always talked. You might not like it, or disagree, but it's the truth. It's a basic incentive, people always have, and always will want what's best for themselves and their families

[thebish]

Like money hasn't always talked. You might not like it, or disagree, but it's the truth. It's a basic incentive, people always have, and always will want what's best for themselves and their families

BWFCi can tell us for himself what he is angry about, but I'm not sure he is doubting the above or saying it is not true..

The way I read it - he is angry, not that money talks, but that the govt seems to be bending over backwards - when the number of university places have been massively cut - to create extra places that are only accessible to the well-off.

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

Essentially what he is talking about is a side issue - reprehensible nevertheless but a side issue.
Education will only become a conduit for social mobility in this country when our best universities are forced by quota to accept a higher percentage of their intake from state schools. Until then they will still allow their own kind in in disproportionate numbers through interview, post code etc. and thus perpetuate the educational division between haves and have nots.
Ah but wont that mean some students with inferior grades getting the places of "higher achieving" students?
yes it will initially but it may also prevent the de facto situation that my students encounter every year when they get turned down for Oxford and Cambridge despite having the necessary grades because they have either not got the social graces or accent or "life experience" to shine at interview or have the wrong post code.

you cant do medicine at University these days unless daddy is a doctor.

affirmative action - but it will never happen while our entire political class is drawn from the same social class.

[CrazyHorse]

Like money hasn't always talked. You might not like it, or disagree, but it's the truth. It's a basic incentive, people always have, and always will want what's best for themselves and their families

BWFCi can tell us for himself what he is angry about, but I'm not sure he is doubting the above or saying it is not true..

The way I read it - he is angry, not that money talks, but that the govt seems to be bending over backwards - when the number of university places have been massively cut - to create extra places that are only accessible to the well-off.

Hey don't shoot the messenger. I just quoted mummy/crayons signature. Take it up with him.

[thebish]

Like money hasn't always talked. You might not like it, or disagree, but it's the truth. It's a basic incentive, people always have, and always will want what's best for themselves and their families

BWFCi can tell us for himself what he is angry about, but I'm not sure he is doubting the above or saying it is not true..

The way I read it - he is angry, not that money talks, but that the govt seems to be bending over backwards - when the number of university places have been massively cut - to create extra places that are only accessible to the well-off.

Hey don't shoot the messenger. I just quoted mummy/crayons signature. Take it up with him.

I was just wondering why you quoted it, is all! Maybe we should have a random sig-appreciation thread?

[thebish]

anyway... BWFCi can go find summat else to be cross about...

1. Willetts floats the idea
2. Cable appears to kill it - whilst actually being a bit vague
3. Tim Farron has a bit of a hissy fit about it
4. A government spokesman says it was all a bit of a misunderstanding - please forget we said anything.

some might wonder if it was all a stunt to make the Lib Dems look a bit tough....

[BWFC_Insane]

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

How is that even remotely the same?
Getting a degree isn't life threatening but needing a new kidney is. In the same way that a new kidney won't help get you a fast track promotion from salad washer to burger flipper but y'know four years "hard study" will.

Not necessarily "life threatening" at all. But that aside, I never said it was the "same" I merely postulated what having money might help you with next.

In the same way as education won't be so much about the most academically gifted but about who can afford to pay, why would a kidney transplant necessarily be about clinical need?

Hasn't that always been the case?? Ie; the more money you havem, the better quality of things you can afford.

Be it Education, Healthcare (Bupa anyone?) or general life style. Money has always talked and it always will

You're always "better off with money" that much is certain. In terms of healthcare I'm not so sure that private has always been better, especially UK private. BUPA will only do certain things so essentially even with money you may still need the NHS.

Education, has been at least in theory open to everyone and certainly has not been "allowed" to favour the wealthy. Now I agree that there has always been an element of favouring those from more privileged backgrounds, in that they tend to go to better schools, are pushed more, get more resources spent on them etc. But it wasn't "exclusive". This effectively says that you can buy a place if you can afford it. With the tagline being "it will subsidise the less well off students". But in reality it will create first and second class Universite citizens. You look at University budgets now and they spend a LOT of their money working to attract the PAYING foreign students. Once this new avenue is opened up they will spend their time split between the foreign markets and the wealthy home market.

I just fundamentally don't agree with it. I will always believe that a University place should reflect the students academic (and learning/researching/communication etc) abilities and never reflect how much their parents earn.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Effectively this is outright saying that you can "buy a place at university".

What next? Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

How is that even remotely the same?
Getting a degree isn't life threatening but needing a new kidney is. In the same way that a new kidney won't help get you a fast track promotion from salad washer to burger flipper but y'know four years "hard study" will.

Not necessarily "life threatening" at all. But that aside, I never said it was the "same" I merely postulated what having money might help you with next.

In the same way as education won't be so much about the most academically gifted but about who can afford to pay, why would a kidney transplant necessarily be about clinical need?

Hasn't that always been the case?? Ie; the more money you havem, the better quality of things you can afford.

Be it Education, Healthcare (Bupa anyone?) or general life style. Money has always talked and it always will

You're always "better off with money" that much is certain. In terms of healthcare I'm not so sure that private has always been better, especially UK private. BUPA will only do certain things so essentially even with money you may still need the NHS.

Education, has been at least in theory open to everyone and certainly has not been "allowed" to favour the wealthy. Now I agree that there has always been an element of favouring those from more privileged backgrounds, in that they tend to go to better schools, are pushed more, get more resources spent on them etc. But it wasn't "exclusive". This effectively says that you can buy a place if you can afford it. With the tagline being "it will subsidise the less well off students". But in reality it will create first and second class Universite citizens. You look at University budgets now and they spend a LOT of their money working to attract the PAYING foreign students. Once this new avenue is opened up they will spend their time split between the foreign markets and the wealthy home market.

I just fundamentally don't agree with it. I will always believe that a University place should reflect the students academic (and learning/researching/communication etc) abilities and never reflect how much their parents earn.

How so? This isn't having a go but how's that work? Are they going to have different areas for the loaded and everyone else within a university?

[superjohnmcginlay]

some might wonder if it was all a stunt to make the Lib Dems look a bit tough....

Is the right answer.

[Prufrock]

Ok you're on the waiting list for a kidney transplant but hey if you've got a spare 20K we can bump you to the front of the queue?

Thought you could do that anyway with private hospitals.



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 105103791/

You want funny newspaper articles?

This nearly made me piss my pants. My favourite sentence being,

"Unlike these rogue operators, newspapers set out to tell the truth. They do not invent false stories about people — or, if they do, they get into a great deal of trouble.".

From the Daily Mail!

[Lord Kangana]

Essentially what he is talking about is a side issue - reprehensible nevertheless but a side issue.
Education will only become a conduit for social mobility in this country when our best universities are forced by quota to accept a higher percentage of their intake from state schools. Until then they will still allow their own kind in in disproportionate numbers through interview, post code etc. and thus perpetuate the educational division between haves and have nots.
Ah but wont that mean some students with inferior grades getting the places of "higher achieving" students?
yes it will initially but it may also prevent the de facto situation that my students encounter every year when they get turned down for Oxford and Cambridge despite having the necessary grades because they have either not got the social graces or accent or "life experience" to shine at interview or have the wrong post code.

you cant do medicine at University these days unless daddy is a doctor.

affirmative action - but it will never happen while our entire political class is drawn from the same social class.

Wouldn't a simpler and more expeditious approach be to make State Schools raise their standards?

[thebish]

Wouldn't a simpler and more expeditious approach be to make State Schools raise their standards?

care to share the simple formula for doing that??