TKIZ's impossibly brilliant all new Transfer Rumours thread

[thebish]

As for suggestions well here's one for starters...

I'd personally rather have given Elmander the fooking 3.5M and Rodrigo's wages seeing as we had both last season and it was OUR MANAGERS' choice to pick Elmander ahead of Rodrigo.

hmmm.... let me think...

We spent 2M on Alonso but essentially the net result is 2M down the drain. If we spend serious money on Elmander there is the same chance we lose it. no?

[BWFC_Insane]

Folk whinge when we discuss buying top prem players cos they have no resale value. Folk whinge when we invest in quality youth players cos they aint top prem players straight away. And in the middle is a group of players who are neither one nor t'other, and these are the kind of players we're releasing and hoping not to see the likes of again.

Its about the balance. Its also about the right players and the prices. Rodrigo on loan then great. But for 3.5M thats a big risk.

We spent 2M on Alonso and I doubt he'll ever play for us again and lets face it he wasn't exactly "great" when he did. But essentially the net result is 2M down the drain. If we spend serious money on Rodrigo there is the same chance we lose it. Which is why the amounts just seem risky. Had he really proven himself last season then fine. But even at the end with all our injuries and poor results he still couldn't really break into the side!

But it's only £2M down the drain because of a non-football related incident that we had no control over. If you'll take off the perma-gloom specs, then you should notice that Alonso was improving - he didn't play all that much, but every time he did, he was a little bit better than the last time. Would it have been £2M down the drain if, this time next season, he'd got another 10 games or more under his belt, and was ready to take over from an ailing, ageing Robinson? No, of course it wouldn't - but it would probably have been about £2/3M saved.

Well we'll probably never know. To me he never ever ever looked like a left back. He had "something" but I'm not sure he was ever going to be a defender in the premiership and lacked pace for me.

However you are right re the "unfortunate incident". But again you'll risk the unknown with younger players more than with slightly more established ones. Harder to tell before they've "made it" whether they'll have the right attitude/go off the rails/lead a destructive personal life etc.

All round a greater risk.

[Lord Kangana]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

[BWFC_Insane]

Folk whinge when we discuss buying top prem players cos they have no resale value. Folk whinge when we invest in quality youth players cos they aint top prem players straight away. And in the middle is a group of players who are neither one nor t'other, and these are the kind of players we're releasing and hoping not to see the likes of again.

Its about the balance. Its also about the right players and the prices. Rodrigo on loan then great. But for 3.5M thats a big risk.

We spent 2M on Alonso and I doubt he'll ever play for us again and lets face it he wasn't exactly "great" when he did. But essentially the net result is 2M down the drain. If we spend serious money on Rodrigo there is the same chance we lose it.

can you explain the maths behind that bizarre statement?

Sorry Bish I've not written it right. What I mean IMO, is that roughly there is an equal chance of him being an invaluable first team regular to him ending up being sold for peanuts back to a second division Spanish side having not made it here.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

To be fair to Alonso he seemed to have the right attitude & good upbringing. Going off that criteria alone, you couldnt have found a teenager that ticked more of the boxes than him.

[BWFC_Insane]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

[thebish]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

I don't think it is really very complicated.

Coyle obviously rated Elmo
Elmo was already on what Coyle thought was too much money (despite rating him highly)
Elmo wanted even more moolah for a new contract
Coyle decided (with Garty's agreement) they could better pursue other options with the cash.

[truewhite15]

Folk whinge when we discuss buying top prem players cos they have no resale value. Folk whinge when we invest in quality youth players cos they aint top prem players straight away. And in the middle is a group of players who are neither one nor t'other, and these are the kind of players we're releasing and hoping not to see the likes of again.

Its about the balance. Its also about the right players and the prices. Rodrigo on loan then great. But for 3.5M thats a big risk.

We spent 2M on Alonso and I doubt he'll ever play for us again and lets face it he wasn't exactly "great" when he did. But essentially the net result is 2M down the drain. If we spend serious money on Rodrigo there is the same chance we lose it. Which is why the amounts just seem risky. Had he really proven himself last season then fine. But even at the end with all our injuries and poor results he still couldn't really break into the side!

But it's only £2M down the drain because of a non-football related incident that we had no control over. If you'll take off the perma-gloom specs, then you should notice that Alonso was improving - he didn't play all that much, but every time he did, he was a little bit better than the last time. Would it have been £2M down the drain if, this time next season, he'd got another 10 games or more under his belt, and was ready to take over from an ailing, ageing Robinson? No, of course it wouldn't - but it would probably have been about £2/3M saved.

Well we'll probably never no. To me he never ever ever looked like a left back. He had "something" but I'm not sure he was ever going to be a defender in the premiership and lacked pace for me.

However you are right re the "unfortunate incident". But again you'll risk the unknown with younger players more than with slightly more established ones. Harder to tell before they've "made it" whether they'll have the right attitude/go off the rails/lead a destructive personal life etc.

All round a greater risk.

But once they've "made it", then you start adding 1's and 0's to their price tag, whether they're actually worth it or not. And that's money that we, as a club, do not have. Plus, if we show interest in a player that has "made it", then you get legions of fans decrying him for not being good enough, as evidenced by this bit of MotD, and this bit of this replay on SSN...

So IMO, it's not a "greater risk" at all to spend a smaller amount of money on a relatively unknown player. An established top-flighter can be just as likely to go off the rails or smack someone in the face in an alcohol-fuelled rage (isn't that right, Stevie G?). The risks are just different.

[BWFC_Insane]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

I don't think it is really very complicated.

Coyle obviously rated Elmo
Elmo was already on what Coyle thought was too much money (despite rating him highly)
Elmo wanted even more moolah for a new contract
Coyle decided (with Garty's agreement) they could better pursue other options with the cash.

Aye and I've no problem with that, until the "better option" is one who sat on the bench last season and couldn't get Elmander out of the side. Because that to me sounds like a "backwards step".

[thebish]

I don't think it is really very complicated.

Coyle obviously rated Elmo
Elmo was already on what Coyle thought was too much money (despite rating him highly)
Elmo wanted even more moolah for a new contract
Coyle decided (with Garty's agreement) they could better pursue other options with the cash.

Aye and I've no problem with that, until the "better option" is one who sat on the bench last season and couldn't get Elmander out of the side. Because that to me sounds like a "backwards step".

hmmm.... - but - did you honestly think that Elmo was the "better option" before last season started? I don't think there wouold be much evidence of you thinking that in the annals of this forum...

it is easy to make such a judgement after the event - but not before the event. To make a before the event judgement you'd need more data then you and I have - like, perhaps, having seen the player day-in-day-out on the training pitch and marking/judging his rate of progression...

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't think it is really very complicated.

Coyle obviously rated Elmo
Elmo was already on what Coyle thought was too much money (despite rating him highly)
Elmo wanted even more moolah for a new contract
Coyle decided (with Garty's agreement) they could better pursue other options with the cash.

Aye and I've no problem with that, until the "better option" is one who sat on the bench last season and couldn't get Elmander out of the side. Because that to me sounds like a "backwards step".

hmmm.... - but - did you honestly think that Elmo was the "better option" before last season started? I don't think there wouold be much evidence of you thinking that in the annals of this forum...

it is easy to make such a judgement after the event - but not before the event. To make a before the event judgement you'd need more data then you and I have - like, perhaps, having seen the player day-in-day-out on the training pitch and marking/judging his rate of progression...

Which is a fair point Bish. But my point is, if Rodrigo is the better option why wasn't he in there instead of Elmo last season?

Or are we banking on him getting better? At which point we get back to it being quite an expensive risk to take.....

[thebish]

Which is a fair point Bish. But my point is, if Rodrigo is the better option why wasn't he in there instead of Elmo last season?

maybe because Coyle didn't think that last season Rodrigo was the better option...

maybe Coyle thinks that the new blend of players (including Rodders) that he can afford without Elmo's new contract will collectively provide a better option than the one that still had Elmo in it - for the money.

or.. maybe Coyle can see Rodders blossoming into summat special (and - if we're honest - we did see some glimpses last season)

either way - it isn't outrageously risky given that Rodders is no longer a foreign unknown - but someone Coyle has taken a proper close look at - and thus can use his skilled judgement properly. I'm happy to back that judgement (not that it makes the slightest bit of difference if i do or I don't!)

[Lord Kangana]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

Well, where to start with that little lot.

Petrov was pretty much as much of a first team regular as anyone else on the left over the course of the season.

It's also interesting to note that in January we brought in Sturridge, and Elmander was immediately shunted out wide to make way, covering Lee whilst he was away/exhausted, then pushed back in to midfield when we had no-one else. I'm sure there was some logic in trying to see whether he was worth a new contract, but ultimately Coyle will not be in charge of the purse strings. That'll be the same Elmander who was dropped by the very man who purchased him for record money.

As for Rodrigo, I fear I may be repeating a point dozens of posters have made hundreds of times, but Rodrigo is still a kid. With the best will in the world kids are very rarely reliable first team regulars. Of all those superstars that United brought through in the nineties, only Giggs could claim to be a teenage prodigy. It took most of them to their early twenties to nail a place down. He represents potential. Having seen Elmander mince around the pitch for two years before deciding to get stuck in, I'm comfortable with the idea of waiting.

I hope this answers your points.

[BWFC_Insane]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

Well, where to start with that little lot.

Petrov was pretty much as much of a first team regular as anyone else on the left over the course of the season.

It's also interesting to note that in January we brought in Sturridge, and Elmander was immediately shunted out wide to make way, covering Lee whilst he was away/exhausted, then pushed back in to midfield when we had no-one else. I'm sure there was some logic in trying to see whether he was worth a new contract, but ultimately Coyle will not be in charge of the purse strings. That'll be the same Elmander who was dropped by the very man who purchased him for record money.

As for Rodrigo, I fear I may be repeating a point dozens of posters have made hundreds of times, but Rodrigo is still a kid. With the best will in the world kids are very rarely reliable first team regulars. Of all those superstars that United brought through in the nineties, only Giggs could claim to be a teenage prodigy. It took most of them to their early twenties to nail a place down. He represents potential. Having seen Elmander mince around the pitch for two years before deciding to get stuck in, I'm comfortable with the idea of waiting.

I hope this answers your points.

It answers them but hardly puts an encouraging case forwards.

I suppose it boils down to if we get 2 strikers who are ready and able to play regularly at premiership level and have running and goals in them and we get the defensive players we need to cover Cahills loss and improve our shaky backline and the centre of midfield is beefed up adequately, then yes Rodrigo will be a gamble but we'll be able to wait for him.

But if we're signing him and not getting all the other players in we need then it relies on Rodrigo "being ready". And thats where my concern is. Perhaps he is ready to be a regular up front and contribute the 10 or so goals we need, if we sign him then I really hope so!

[truewhite15]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

Well, where to start with that little lot.

Petrov was pretty much as much of a first team regular as anyone else on the left over the course of the season.

It's also interesting to note that in January we brought in Sturridge, and Elmander was immediately shunted out wide to make way, covering Lee whilst he was away/exhausted, then pushed back in to midfield when we had no-one else. I'm sure there was some logic in trying to see whether he was worth a new contract, but ultimately Coyle will not be in charge of the purse strings. That'll be the same Elmander who was dropped by the very man who purchased him for record money.

As for Rodrigo, I fear I may be repeating a point dozens of posters have made hundreds of times, but Rodrigo is still a kid. With the best will in the world kids are very rarely reliable first team regulars. Of all those superstars that United brought through in the nineties, only Giggs could claim to be a teenage prodigy. It took most of them to their early twenties to nail a place down. He represents potential. Having seen Elmander mince around the pitch for two years before deciding to get stuck in, I'm comfortable with the idea of waiting.

I hope this answers your points.

It answers them but hardly puts an encouraging case forwards.

I suppose it boils down to if we get 2 strikers who are ready and able to play regularly at premiership level and have running and goals in them and we get the defensive players we need to cover Cahills loss and improve our shaky backline and the centre of midfield is beefed up adequately, then yes Rodrigo will be a gamble but we'll be able to wait for him.

But if we're signing him and not getting all the other players in we need then it relies on Rodrigo "being ready". And thats where my concern is. Perhaps he is ready to be a regular up front and contribute the 10 or so goals we need, if we sign him then I really hope so!

But for the money we're proposing to spend on Rodrigo, who is there currently "ready" who we could get in to score 10+ a season? You'd have to be adding tremendous increments to get somebody who people wouldn't bitch about signing...

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Besides, my recollection was that it was our Chairman's and Owner's own preference to punt Johann out the door after demanding more money for basically being shit for 5/6ths of his stay.

I await with much anticipation the clamour on here to up Petrov's wages on demand.

Difference is Petrov wasn't a first team regular.

I would love for you to explain why Elmander was picked every single game he was fit by Coyle. Was that because Elmander was better than our benchers including Rodrigo? Or was Coyle just pissing around for the fun of it?

Well, where to start with that little lot.

Petrov was pretty much as much of a first team regular as anyone else on the left over the course of the season.

It's also interesting to note that in January we brought in Sturridge, and Elmander was immediately shunted out wide to make way, covering Lee whilst he was away/exhausted, then pushed back in to midfield when we had no-one else. I'm sure there was some logic in trying to see whether he was worth a new contract, but ultimately Coyle will not be in charge of the purse strings. That'll be the same Elmander who was dropped by the very man who purchased him for record money.

As for Rodrigo, I fear I may be repeating a point dozens of posters have made hundreds of times, but Rodrigo is still a kid. With the best will in the world kids are very rarely reliable first team regulars. Of all those superstars that United brought through in the nineties, only Giggs could claim to be a teenage prodigy. It took most of them to their early twenties to nail a place down. He represents potential. Having seen Elmander mince around the pitch for two years before deciding to get stuck in, I'm comfortable with the idea of waiting.

I hope this answers your points.

It answers them but hardly puts an encouraging case forwards.

I suppose it boils down to if we get 2 strikers who are ready and able to play regularly at premiership level and have running and goals in them and we get the defensive players we need to cover Cahills loss and improve our shaky backline and the centre of midfield is beefed up adequately, then yes Rodrigo will be a gamble but we'll be able to wait for him.

But if we're signing him and not getting all the other players in we need then it relies on Rodrigo "being ready". And thats where my concern is. Perhaps he is ready to be a regular up front and contribute the 10 or so goals we need, if we sign him then I really hope so!

But for the money we're proposing to spend on Rodrigo, who is there currently "ready" who we could get in to score 10+ a season? You'd have to be adding tremendous increments to get somebody who people wouldn't bitch about signing...

Thats assuming Rodrigo would score 10+ a season, which he wouldnt to start with, and something we shouldnt rely on and im sure OC sees it that way too.

[BWFC_Insane]

Thats assuming Rodrigo would score 10+ a season, which he wouldnt to start with, and something we shouldnt rely on and im sure OC sees it that way too.

But our priorities surely have to be getting 2 players who will replace Elmander and Sturridge's goals last season?

So if we spend 3.5M on Rodrigo and he's not going to do that we'll still need to get the players who will......

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Thats assuming Rodrigo would score 10+ a season, which he wouldnt to start with, and something we shouldnt rely on and im sure OC sees it that way too.

But our priorities surely have to be getting 2 players who will replace Elmander and Sturridge's goals last season?

So if we spend 3.5M on Rodrigo and he's not going to do that we'll still need to get the players who will......

But you dont know that he's not working on that do you?

[thebish]

Thats assuming Rodrigo would score 10+ a season, which he wouldnt to start with, and something we shouldnt rely on and im sure OC sees it that way too.

But our priorities surely have to be getting 2 players who will replace Elmander and Sturridge's goals last season?

So if we spend 3.5M on Rodrigo and he's not going to do that we'll still need to get the players who will......

I'm not sure football works like that. one player who happened to score 8 goals in a particular season leaves - so we have to replace him with another 8-goal player...

what we might do instead is bring in 3 players who score 3 or 4 each and a system/mix that encourages goals from all quarters..

the idea of relying on one or two individuals for the goals is (for someone as apparently risk-averse as you) a bit of a risk given the possibility of injury...

also - as the phrase goes - past results are not a guarantee of future performance. It would be by no means certain that all the dosh that you would have proposed spunking on Elmo would produce the same number of goals from him next season...

Rodders is clearly not coyle's only target - let's see what the ultimate mix is before we suggest selling the family silver to have elmo back...

[hisroyalgingerness]

I pop on here once a day. 3 pages gets added...where a single post which reads "meh" would suffice