The TRUTH re Money

[Lord Kangana]

Apparently, direct Coyle quotes saying he has money are now less "evidence" than LK's ITK.

It's an unwinnable argument. Common sense long since got its head sat on by hearsay and guesswork.

I'd normally expect better than to see you getting caught up in BWFCi related hysteria. And using words like "spin" and "ITK" (I believe wiki refers to these as weasel words) to try to disagree with anothers opinion.

So for the record, other than paper talk, what "evidence" is there that we have money?

Because at the moment, our summer spending is £4.2m in the black. I'll happily listen to how this proves we've got cash money.

[truewhite15]

Apparently, direct Coyle quotes saying he has money are now less "evidence" than LK's ITK.

It's an unwinnable argument. Common sense long since got its head sat on by hearsay and guesswork.

I'd normally expect better than to see you getting caught up in BWFCi related hysteria. And using words like "spin" and "ITK" (I believe wiki refers to these as weasel words) to try to disagree with anothers opinion.

So for the record, other than paper talk, what "evidence" is there that we have money?

Because at the moment, our summer spending is £4.2m in the black. I'll happily listen to how this proves we've got cash money.

I think you might be confusing the term "Direct Interview" with "Paper Talk" simply because of the format it appears in...

[Lord Kangana]

Its still just words in a paper. I'm interested in whats actually happening. This may or may not change. But a paint-by-numbers football interview isn't concrete evidence of our true position.

[truewhite15]

Its still just words in a paper. I'm interested in whats actually happening. This may or may not change. But a paint-by-numbers football interview isn't concrete evidence of our true position.

No, but it's just as relevant as you pointing out that we're in the black in terms of transfer fees. All last season Coyle was referring to "getting rid of the deadwood". Is it not possible that those players we've sold on ARE the deadwood, and the pot of money we've got for them is incidental, rather than our sole means of transferring players IN?

[Lord Kangana]

A false dichotomy is being created by arguing that the positions " we have no money" and "we are being careful with money" are diametrically opposed. They are perfectly reconcilable.

We are in the black, Coyle is being careful with money. My hunch (and it is a hunch, in the same way as it is for anyone else) is that there will be no movement before QPR, but maybe by the end of the window, when clubs like Birmingham will be desperate to make any money on players. I could see a late bid for Jerome on this basis. Of say £3-£4m.

Indeed, I'd go as far as to suggest we may actively spend a couple of million by then, as season income starts to come on tap.

The only cat amongst the pigeosn could be the sale (or not) of Cahill.

But what I can't really get my head round is the reluctance to discuss the position of having no money. look around, plenty of clubs are not doing a great deal of spending, other than those with injections of cash or Champions League income. I don't see how we can be so different to the general trend?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

You're right, LK. I take back the ITK; it was wrong.

You've been convinced for about six weeks that we've got no money to spend. Fair enough; that's your belief. Along come direct quotes from the manager saying he has money to spend. You have the right not to abandon your beliefs, but from the outside it looks increasingly like you're a conspiracy nut in a tinfoil hat, or a Japanese soldier fighting WWII alone in the jungle in the 1970s.

We have a positive balance sheet so far this summer because some of the offers we have put in – which most sources agree include a £5m bid for Jeffren, which would put us in the red for this window – have been rejected, possibly for the reasons outlined in Coyle's quotes, while we have sold players for whom we have been offered good money. On the AAH deal we held out for £4m (via a fortnight or so's brinksmanship with a very vocal Dave Whelan, which in itself goes a long way to disprove the notion that we are desperate to sell, but that's my opinion, which you clearly don't share). We were offered seven figures for Danny Ward, which seems on the high side of reasonable for someone of his experience and age. And we were gifted £2.2m for Matt Taylor, a very tasty butty indeed for someone in the last year of his contract who turns 30 in three months.

You say "We've still no money" and "I'm not asking you to believe me", but this sounds a lot like folded-arms injured pride following clear quotes from the manager that we do have money to spend. I know nothing will convince you short of us spending more money than we make - which may or may not happen this month - so I get the terrible feeling I'm wasting my effort on a zealot. But just because your arch enemy BWFC Insane says something doesn't mean it's wrong. Just because someone agrees with him doesn't make it "hysteria". You have your position, or perhaps your supposition. I have mine, based upon direct quotes from the manager. You may call them "spin" (I don't recall using the word myself) but from where I sit it looks awfully like you're the one trying to spin them into hidden motives and agendas. So don't give me shit about "weasel words". They make it sound terribly like you're the one squirming and squealing.

[Lord Kangana]

Course, there'll always be those who are convinced we've no money to spend. But I can't really see how anyone can hope to spin this story that way - or at least spin it and have anyone believe them.

I'm happy with my spinning if you're happy with yours.

[Worthy4England]

I think we need to poll to judge who's spinning is the best.

[Hoboh]

Every body not sleeping because of the "heatwave" or what? or has CAPS spread a virus?

[Prufrock]

Ol' Red Nose came out and said their spending was done for the summer a few days ago. Wenger said Arsenal were very active in the market. Anybody believe them? Of course lovely old OC would never lie.

It's hardly a tin foil hat job to point out that a set of circumstances which have been claimed to be conclusive 'proof' about the 'TRUTH' could quite as easily explain the opposite. The entire substance of this apparently water-tight case for us being minted is that Coyle would never, ever lie to the razor sharp journos of the Bolton pissing News.

Anyone at all claiming fact or knowledge is a shite peddler of huge proportions. Unless they are an old, rich man with a golden helicopter.

For me, the timing of the deals we know about (and of course we might not have bid what we did actually when it was reported, but the amounts seem too convenient) suggests we are on sell to buy. The fact similar and bigger clubs are spending f*ck all suggests no-one has any money. Chicken farmers are penny pinching despite having worse up top than even us. Despite their miserable managers tag for working miracles on pennies, Everton have a track record for spending big money while everyone looks the other way and goes 'la la la' and they aren't spending owt. Wigan are selling before any outlay. But we're minted, yeah? OC gives an interview that if you disbelieve makes you a tin hat wearer, whereas believing every word a manager makes about transfer speculation, even good 'ol 'Arry, absolutely does NOT, no SIREE, make you the sort of person who got their news from Pravda.

All that means my instinct is we're broke, or OC isn't getting any to spend any way. Other folk have read into it that we do have pennies but aren't spending them yet. Great, all fine, but unless you have access to ED's account, no-body knows f*ck all. You can argue hypotheticals with a mad conviction if you want, and accuse all and sundry of conspiracy theories and second homes in cloud cuckoo land, but you know f*ck all either.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Calm down. Nobody said we're minted. And you're quite right that the market is slow, slower even than it has been over the last few leave-it-late summers, probably because many of the clubs are as indebted as the rest of our pathetic neo-feudal mortgage-slave society.

Sorry, but I'm still very far indeed from being convinced that Coyle's quotes about having money to spend "could easily explain quite the opposite". I simply can't make that leap of faith, possibly because I couldn't before the quotes, and the quotes give me no clear reason at all to change my belief. If Coyle is lying, he isn't just lying to "the razor sharp journos of the Bolton pissing News", he's lying to every Bolton fan. Might wanna be careful with that.

Nobody says the case (that we have money to spend) is "watertight", although others are resolutely unmoved by quotes from the manager. That's direct quotes, from the manager of the football club. (In the Barclays Premier League.) Where I come from, that's still a source, even if you think he's lying to the entire fanbase. Nobody's "claiming fact or knowledge", although some are getting really quite upset with alternative points of view.

As for believing managerial quotes being equated to swallowing the propaganda of a totalitarian state, I think you might look back on that comparison with a shade of embarrassment. I'd certainly hope so.

[thebish]

Ol' Red Nose came out and said their spending was done for the summer a few days ago. Wenger said Arsenal were very active in the market. Anybody believe them? Of course lovely old OC would never lie.

It's hardly a tin foil hat job to point out that a set of circumstances which have been claimed to be conclusive 'proof' about the 'TRUTH' could quite as easily explain the opposite. The entire substance of this apparently water-tight case for us being minted is that Coyle would never, ever lie to the razor sharp journos of the Bolton pissing News.

Anyone at all claiming fact or knowledge is a shite peddler of huge proportions. Unless they are an old, rich man with a golden helicopter.

For me, the timing of the deals we know about (and of course we might not have bid what we did actually when it was reported, but the amounts seem too convenient) suggests we are on sell to buy. The fact similar and bigger clubs are spending f*ck all suggests no-one has any money. Chicken farmers are penny pinching despite having worse up top than even us. Despite their miserable managers tag for working miracles on pennies, Everton have a track record for spending big money while everyone looks the other way and goes 'la la la' and they aren't spending owt. Wigan are selling before any outlay. But we're minted, yeah? OC gives an interview that if you disbelieve makes you a tin hat wearer, whereas believing every word a manager makes about transfer speculation, even good 'ol 'Arry, absolutely does NOT, no SIREE, make you the sort of person who got their news from Pravda.

All that means my instinct is we're broke, or OC isn't getting any to spend any way. Other folk have read into it that we do have pennies but aren't spending them yet. Great, all fine, but unless you have access to ED's account, no-body knows f*ck all. You can argue hypotheticals with a mad conviction if you want, and accuse all and sundry of conspiracy theories and second homes in cloud cuckoo land, but you know f*ck all either.

has Coyle ever given us reason to disbelieve his direct quotes? if not - then I am minded to believe that he is speaking in good faith. maybe that makes me naive - but I think I'll just apply lex parsimoniae* to this one for the time being...

*the principle that generally recommends, when faced with competing hypotheses that are equal in other respects, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions.

[Lord Kangana]

As for believing managerial quotes being equated to swallowing the propaganda of a totalitarian state, I think you might look back on that comparison with a shade of embarrassment. I'd certainly hope so.

I think your rebuke would carry more weight had you not used the phrases "conspiracy nut in a tin hat" and a "Japanese soldier fighting WWII alone in the jungle in the 1970s" about 3 posts back.

[Tombwfc]

“I certainly want to add a couple of faces and I don’t think it’s rocket science to work out that we need to strengthen the striking department,” said the Trotters chief.

“You’re never close because it can change very quickly but we’re chasing a couple of targets.

“We’re a couple of million pounds in profit at the minute but hopefully that will change over the next week or so.

“That tells you the kind of striker we’re looking at.”

I thought these quotes were interesting. They're from the MEN and are days old, so I'm sure they'll have been posted somewhere on here.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

As for believing managerial quotes being equated to swallowing the propaganda of a totalitarian state, I think you might look back on that comparison with a shade of embarrassment. I'd certainly hope so.

I think your rebuke would carry more weight had you not used the phrases "conspiracy nut in a tin hat" and a "Japanese soldier fighting WWII alone in the jungle in the 1970s" about 3 posts back.

You're right on that. Two worthwhile footnotes in successive posts.

Ah well. On the actual issue at hand, we'll see. I suspect we all want the same things.

[BWFC_Insane]

“I certainly want to add a couple of faces and I don’t think it’s rocket science to work out that we need to strengthen the striking department,” said the Trotters chief.

“You’re never close because it can change very quickly but we’re chasing a couple of targets.

“We’re a couple of million pounds in profit at the minute but hopefully that will change over the next week or so.

“That tells you the kind of striker we’re looking at.”

I thought these quotes were interesting. They're from the MEN and are days old, so I'm sure they'll have been posted somewhere on here.

He's lying again Tom! He just loves to tell those lies.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

He's lying again Tom! He just loves to tell those lies.

Leave it...

[Prufrock]

Calm down. Nobody said we're minted. And you're quite right that the market is slow, slower even than it has been over the last few leave-it-late summers, probably because many of the clubs are as indebted as the rest of our pathetic neo-feudal mortgage-slave society.

Sorry, but I'm still very far indeed from being convinced that Coyle's quotes about having money to spend "could easily explain quite the opposite". I simply can't make that leap of faith, possibly because I couldn't before the quotes, and the quotes give me no clear reason at all to change my belief. If Coyle is lying, he isn't just lying to "the razor sharp journos of the Bolton pissing News", he's lying to every Bolton fan. Might wanna be careful with that.

Nobody says the case (that we have money to spend) is "watertight", although others are resolutely unmoved by quotes from the manager. That's direct quotes, from the manager of the football club. (In the Barclays Premier League.) Where I come from, that's still a source, even if you think he's lying to the entire fanbase. Nobody's "claiming fact or knowledge", although some are getting really quite upset with alternative points of view.

As for believing managerial quotes being equated to swallowing the propaganda of a totalitarian state, I think you might look back on that comparison with a shade of embarrassment. I'd certainly hope so.

I took my cue from this,

"but from the outside it looks increasingly like you're a conspiracy nut in a tinfoil hat, or a Japanese soldier fighting WWII alone in the jungle in the 1970s. "

Fight hyperbole with hyperbole has been my motto throughout the entire existence of the universe.

As for nobody saying the argument we have money to spend is watertight, you might want to do a quick check of the title of this thread.

Ol Red Nose said just the other day United were done for the summer. Was he lying to the fans (given if Sneijder is possible they certainly aren't done)? It's a pretty easy lie to tell anyway, since none of the fans will ever know. It really doesn't seem that far fetched for me for a manager to use what he says to the media to the gain of his club. I'd almost certainly instinctively believe the opposite of whatever Redknapp told the media.

The two alternatives are to say 'We are cash rich and ready to blow it on anybody', or, 'we're skint, honestly, a tenner for Cahill would probably do it'. Given he is clearly not going to say either of those, if he is going to say anything at all he has to say what he did. Does he say nothing at all? -well given our injury problems and lack of depth out wide and up top he may feel he needs to reassure the fans. The problem BWFCi in particular seems to be having is grasping that I'm not saying that IS what he is saying, just that we don't know and both are, to me, perfectly possible. Those quotes don't prove either case, and how you read them depends on where you were before. It just doesn't seem to me like we have any money available. £5million Jeffren story just after we get similar numbers for Ward and Habsi, £2.5 million Eagles and Mears deal just after £2.5 million Taylor exit. Still no concrete moves towards strengthening the front two with a combined age of roughly a million two weeks before the season starts. Our only other transfers outside those mentioned being frees.

The next few weeks will decide who is right. I'd rather not be, but the idea that anybody has proven anything is silly, as is the idea that holding the opposite viewpoint from the TRUTH is stubborn or 'to prove a point', and not just different.

[Lord Kangana]

Fight hyperbole with hyperbole has been my motto throughout the entire existence of the universe.

I shall be using this in future and pretending its mine!

Seriously though, can we all calm down. Its just f*cking money. We've either got it or we haven't. I'm not sure its worth starting a pogrom over.

[BWFC_Insane]

Calm down. Nobody said we're minted. And you're quite right that the market is slow, slower even than it has been over the last few leave-it-late summers, probably because many of the clubs are as indebted as the rest of our pathetic neo-feudal mortgage-slave society.

Sorry, but I'm still very far indeed from being convinced that Coyle's quotes about having money to spend "could easily explain quite the opposite". I simply can't make that leap of faith, possibly because I couldn't before the quotes, and the quotes give me no clear reason at all to change my belief. If Coyle is lying, he isn't just lying to "the razor sharp journos of the Bolton pissing News", he's lying to every Bolton fan. Might wanna be careful with that.

Nobody says the case (that we have money to spend) is "watertight", although others are resolutely unmoved by quotes from the manager. That's direct quotes, from the manager of the football club. (In the Barclays Premier League.) Where I come from, that's still a source, even if you think he's lying to the entire fanbase. Nobody's "claiming fact or knowledge", although some are getting really quite upset with alternative points of view.

As for believing managerial quotes being equated to swallowing the propaganda of a totalitarian state, I think you might look back on that comparison with a shade of embarrassment. I'd certainly hope so.

I took my cue from this,

"but from the outside it looks increasingly like you're a conspiracy nut in a tinfoil hat, or a Japanese soldier fighting WWII alone in the jungle in the 1970s. "

Fight hyperbole with hyperbole has been my motto throughout the entire existence of the universe.

As for nobody saying the argument we have money to spend is watertight, you might want to do a quick check of the title of this thread.

Ol Red Nose said just the other day United were done for the summer. Was he lying to the fans (given if Sneijder is possible they certainly aren't done)? It's a pretty easy lie to tell anyway, since none of the fans will ever know. It really doesn't seem that far fetched for me for a manager to use what he says to the media to the gain of his club. I'd almost certainly instinctively believe the opposite of whatever Redknapp told the media.

The two alternatives are to say 'We are cash rich and ready to blow it on anybody', or, 'we're skint, honestly, a tenner for Cahill would probably do it'. Given he is clearly not going to say either of those, if he is going to say anything at all he has to say what he did. Does he say nothing at all? -well given our injury problems and lack of depth out wide and up top he may feel he needs to reassure the fans. The problem BWFCi in particular seems to be having is grasping that I'm not saying that IS what he is saying, just that we don't know and both are, to me, perfectly possible. Those quotes don't prove either case, and how you read them depends on where you were before. It just doesn't seem to me like we have any money available. £5million Jeffren story just after we get similar numbers for Ward and Habsi, £2.5 million Eagles and Mears deal just after £2.5 million Taylor exit. Still no concrete moves towards strengthening the front two with a combined age of roughly a million two weeks before the season starts. Our only other transfers outside those mentioned being frees.

The next few weeks will decide who is right. I'd rather not be, but the idea that anybody has proven anything is silly, as is the idea that holding the opposite viewpoint from the TRUTH is stubborn or 'to prove a point', and not just different.

The next few weeks won't decide owt. If we spend a bit folk will claim it's just cos we sold. If we don't spend all it may mean is that the deals Coyle wants weren't possible in what is a slow market. Not spending is not an indication of not having money, see A Wenger over the last few years and continuing.

Just for contrast last season Coyle very definitely made noises that there wasnt much to spend because our wage bill was full and we couldn't shift the players, saying something along the lines of not having much room to bring players in. He wasn't to worried about saying it then, so if that were the case can't see why he'd suddenly start claiming that he was being backed to spend money but wanted to get best value if it were not true.