What are you reading tonight?

[TANGODANCER]

Still not convinced it is anything other than Dan Brown for snobs, but then I enjoyed the Da Vinci Code.

So did I,and Angels and Demons to. To some extent The Lost Symbol wasn'tbad. They were at least entertaining. Trouble is they were followed by a whole rake of "lost documents/gopels/tablets etc, discoverd that if ever revealed could shake the very core of society" wannabees that are total bilge.

[thebish]

... but then I enjoyed the Da Vinci Code.

there's obviously a punchline missing here!

[Prufrock]

... but then I enjoyed the Da Vinci Code.

there's obviously a punchline missing here!

A murky thriller which quickens the heart, but it isn't slow-paced, or translated form another language, so it is worthy of sneers rather than reverence. The Da Vinci code, admittedly, is lacking in Swedish bisexuals, and for that it suffers, but otherwise....

Finished TGWTDT tonight. Enjoyable.

[thebish]

... but then I enjoyed the Da Vinci Code.

there's obviously a punchline missing here!

A murky thriller which quickens the heart, but it isn't slow-paced, or translated form another language, so it is worthy of sneers rather than reverence. The Da Vinci code, admittedly, is lacking in Swedish bisexuals, and for that it suffers, but otherwise....

nahh - none of that - just overhyped yet distinctly average yawn-a-thon pap...

[Wandering Willy]

I've yawned at many a pap.

[Worthy4England]

... but then I enjoyed the Da Vinci Code.

there's obviously a punchline missing here!

A murky thriller which quickens the heart, but it isn't slow-paced, or translated form another language, so it is worthy of sneers rather than reverence. The Da Vinci code, admittedly, is lacking in Swedish bisexuals, and for that it suffers, but otherwise....

nahh - none of that - just overhyped yet distinctly average yawn-a-thon pap...

Howso overhyped? Wasn't it given a bit of a slating by the critics on release?

Either way, plenty of copies sold and lots of people enjoyed it. It's a decent suspension of reality (which is fine in a novel).

[thebish]

Howso overhyped? Wasn't it given a bit of a slating by the critics on release?

The DaVinci Code was MAHOOSIVELY overhyped! you couldn't breathe for posters and television shows asking questions about the "real" DaVinci code!!

anyway, I disagree - massive bag of shite.

(I don't read anything that has literary critics in it - and wouldn't take much notice of their opinion if I did...)

oh... and lots of people support ManUtd - doesn't make them right!

[Worthy4England]

Howso overhyped? Wasn't it given a bit of a slating by the critics on release?

The DaVinci Code was MAHOOSIVELY overhyped! you couldn't breathe for posters and television shows asking questions about the "real" DaVinci code!!

anyway, I disagree - massive bag of shite.

(I don't read anything that has literary critics in it - and wouldn't take much notice of their opinion if I did...)

oh... and lots of people support ManUtd - doesn't make them right!

Fair enough.

I suspect I have a conception that overhyped would be something that was a stifling level of posters/TV etc. etc. and sold 300,000 copies, whereas as one of (the?) biggest selling books of the last 20 years or so, you would expect it to get a rather higher profile. I don't take notice of literary critics either - after all, I've seen plenty of tat recommended by our very own posters on here, but I thought I recalled it getting a bit of a slating on its release.

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

[William the White]

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

I don't think 'measure' and 'rightness' are ways that are useful when talking about fiction (or other forms of artistic expression). The Da Vinci Code turned pages on thousands of beaches in the hands of a million people. That doesn't make it a great book. It definitively, and undeniably, makes it a best seller.

But i think there are ways of talking about fiction/ poetry/ drama that are meaningful - and that is in talking about the art within its own terms. In the case of the novel, for instance, its characterisation, its structure, its narrative, its point of view, its use of language.

It would never have the rigour, of course, that the site's must brilliant statto would require, but would still have moments to enjoy - especially in the disputes.

[Worthy4England]

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

I don't think 'measure' and 'rightness' are ways that are useful when talking about fiction (or other forms of artistic expression). The Da Vinci Code turned pages on thousands of beaches in the hands of a million people. That doesn't make it a great book. It definitively, and undeniably, makes it a best seller.

But i think there are ways of talking about fiction/ poetry/ drama that are meaningful - and that is in talking about the art within its own terms. In the case of the novel, for instance, its characterisation, its structure, its narrative, its point of view, its use of language.

It would never have the rigour, of course, that the site's must brilliant statto would require, but would still have moments to enjoy - especially in the disputes.

I have the most definitive and rigourous of statistical measures for fiction/ poetry/ drama.

Did I like it or not?

I could delve into the characterisation, structure, narrative, point of view (although I'm not sure I particularly look deeply for that in a book like Da Vinci Code) and its use of language, but generally if those elements are not working for me I'd put the book down. So for me, it'd be a bit like examining how the inside of the telly worked as I tried to watch what it was showing.

[Prufrock]

Absolutely with Worthy on this. I don't think the Da Vinci Code was overhyped, it was massively popular, but that is a different thing. It had the collective Islington nose turned up at it, yet lots of people read it. That doesn't mean it is great art, but then I don't think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is either. On the Da Vinci code, I offer the same defence as I do for Harry Potter. Lots of people read it, and lots of people enjoyed, which is enough in itself, but also lots of the people who did read it, weren't 'readers' as such, but due to those books, went out and read other stuff.

As for the comparison I originally made, I don't think either the Da Vinci Code or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo are great novels (thought typing this I wish both had shorter titles), but both are fun, interesting, heart quickening thrillers.

[Prufrock]

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

I don't think 'measure' and 'rightness' are ways that are useful when talking about fiction (or other forms of artistic expression). The Da Vinci Code turned pages on thousands of beaches in the hands of a million people. That doesn't make it a great book. It definitively, and undeniably, makes it a best seller.

But i think there are ways of talking about fiction/ poetry/ drama that are meaningful - and that is in talking about the art within its own terms. In the case of the novel, for instance, its characterisation, its structure, its narrative, its point of view, its use of language.

It would never have the rigour, of course, that the site's must brilliant statto would require, but would still have moments to enjoy - especially in the disputes.

I'd agree with that, but I don't think a book necessarily needs meaning to be a 'good' book. Some books are just great escapism. My original point is that all the flaws in meaning that you point out there apply to both books. And both are enjoyable if not edifying.

[TANGODANCER]

Pru may remember an initial comment I made on The Da Vinci Code. I said that Dan Brown had been clever in finding some answers then writing a book based on the questions. I still hold that view. It was based on a non-fiction work called The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail and the authors of that publication tried to sue Dan Brown for Plagerism. They lost and despite all the supposed hoo-hah from the Vatican (again media hype because the only issue the Vatican had was in refusing to let filming be made inside certain areas of the Basilica) it went on to sell a lot of copies so was a successful book. Me, I enjoyed it thoroughly as such. The film that followed it was a let down for me.

How people see it individually is immaterial. It was a clever excercise that came off. Ask Dan Brown's accountants.

[Worthy4England]

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

I don't think 'measure' and 'rightness' are ways that are useful when talking about fiction (or other forms of artistic expression). The Da Vinci Code turned pages on thousands of beaches in the hands of a million people. That doesn't make it a great book. It definitively, and undeniably, makes it a best seller.

But i think there are ways of talking about fiction/ poetry/ drama that are meaningful - and that is in talking about the art within its own terms. In the case of the novel, for instance, its characterisation, its structure, its narrative, its point of view, its use of language.

It would never have the rigour, of course, that the site's must brilliant statto would require, but would still have moments to enjoy - especially in the disputes.

I'd agree with that, but I don't think a book necessarily needs meaning to be a 'good' book. Some books are just great escapism. My original point is that all the flaws in meaning that you point out there apply to both books. And both are enjoyable if not edifying.

That's part of what I'm saying Pru. On what authority does a book become a "good" book? Surely the point of fiction is to create escapism and if it manages that for lots of people, then that must be a measure of its success. The fact that for some people, the "character development" isn't as strong as that really popular novel that sold 15 copies doesn't make the latter a "better" book (nor necessarily worse), because it's all fairly unquantifiable opinion.

[thebish]

Howso overhyped? Wasn't it given a bit of a slating by the critics on release?

The DaVinci Code was MAHOOSIVELY overhyped! you couldn't breathe for posters and television shows asking questions about the "real" DaVinci code!!

anyway, I disagree - massive bag of shite.

(I don't read anything that has literary critics in it - and wouldn't take much notice of their opinion if I did...)

oh... and lots of people support ManUtd - doesn't make them right!

Fair enough.

I suspect I have a conception that overhyped would be something that was a stifling level of posters/TV etc. etc. and sold 300,000 copies, whereas as one of (the?) biggest selling books of the last 20 years or so, you would expect it to get a rather higher profile. I don't take notice of literary critics either - after all, I've seen plenty of tat recommended by our very own posters on here, but I thought I recalled it getting a bit of a slating on its release.

I'm not sure there's a way to measure the "rightness" of a fictional book, other than lots of people like it and it suspends reality for them?

I think it is a bag of crap without recourse to any argument about "rightness". As a side issue - I was also irritated by its pretense that it was not merely fiction but based on a recently discovered and previously hidden truth. It wasn't.

I was not arguing that it was "right" or "not right" though. Pru said he enjoyed it. I intimated that I didn't. (I did read it all the way through though as I have an annoying inability to give up on a book once I have started it - it breaks some kind of universal law!)

(Pru is entitled to like it - and I wouldn't want to change his mind - he appears to be a bear of simple tastes!) Nor would I decided to support ManU - even if lots of other people do and they find their reality suspended for a while...

[Prufrock]

I'm a bear of a wide range of tastes ta very much .

[thebish]

Intrugued by Worthy's evident fascination with the critics... I looked up some critics views of the DaVinci Code...

most entertaining was Stephen Fry's:

"complete loose stool-water" and "arse gravy of the worst kind. I just loathe all those books about the Holy Grail and Masons and Catholic conspiracies and all that botty-dribble. I mean, there's so much more that's interesting and exciting in art and in history. It plays to the worst and laziest in humanity, the desire to think the worst of the past and the desire to feel superior to it in some fatuous way." (wiki)


I just didn't enjoy it - it seemed obviously formulaic and lacking in wit to me... (and that's fine)

BUT

I ALSO didn't enjoy it because of the claims it made. Brown actually claimed that the background history for his puzzle-story was 100% fact. he repeatedly made that claim.

presenting simple fiction as "historical fiction" - and getting all the history wrong (sometimes intentionally) is (I think) intellectually dishonest.

[Prufrock]

Don't get me wrong, I think Dan Brown is a dick. Particularly for the 'it's the truth' business. Doesn't affect the book though, IMO. Death of the author and all that (this narrow minded bear has read Barthes don't you know ).

[thebish]

Don't get me wrong, I think Dan Brown is a dick. Particularly for the 'it's the truth' business. Doesn't affect the book though, IMO. Death of the author and all that (this narrow minded bear has read Barthes don't you know ).

(PS nobody called you narrow-minded!)

[TANGODANCER]

Despite you stating that rights and wrongs don't come into The Da Vinci Code Bish, I'm suspecting that they do somewhat in your case, hence your "bag of crap" description for what most of us see as an enjoyable fictional novel. People are ever finding "revelations" and putting forth theories on religion as you very well know. None of it is ever world changing and soon passes on. The Grail legends have been around a very long time and I suggest you read Sinclair's non-fiction works, The Sword and the Grail and Rosslyn , Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas's "The Second Messiah" and "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and several such like books for what The Da Vinci Code is really based on. All of it is supposition and legend mixed with some accepted truths and it's all been round the block many times.

The real appeal in Dan Brown's book, at least for me, was his clever use of reality, location, architecture and art combined with a few flights of fictional fantasy to write a very readable book. As a life-long Christian I'm neither offended or a member of the "outragerati" (sorry Bruce) by any of it. Indeed, anything that's neither provable or disprovable is a surefire basis for interest and controversy. I applaud him for being clever enough to write it.