Coyle - Time to go? [post-Everton]

[CAPSLOCK]

If Cahill had just played a simple ball up the line to another Bolton player

stop aimlessly hoofing it straight back to the opposition - even the basics of quick pass & move football

Whop would you ahve Coyle pass it too

He wasn't showboating, he was trying to slow the game down, give himself time to find a team mate in amongst the shambles that is a BWFC awayday

[Peter Thompson]

What - so he (Cahill) couldn't just have played it down the line to the wide man, or play it into central midfield to NRC or Muamba or if need be Row Z

I know the team is shambolic and whoever he would have passed it to would have most probably lost the ball - but as a Centre Half he shouldn't have been thinking about a fancy drag back, because if it had come off his only option was really back to the keeper or to Knight who would have also likely played it back to the keeper - there was nothing to be gained apart from showing that he could play a bit.

Why would he want to slow the game down at that moment of the game - if we're 2-0 up I could understand it, but 1-0 down and desperate for points ?

[thebish]

ahhh - I see - had someone else passed it to Cahill, he'd not have committed a foul and the ref would not have had a total brainfart?

If Cahill had just played a simple ball up the line to another Bolton player and not try and play like Franz Beckenbauer with a fancy drag back -none of what happened would have.

heavy use of the shoehorn there, Peter - to make an entirely irrelevant point! (and one you've already made!)

CAPS is alleging that the sending off was Coyles fault because he picked Zat Knight - and consequently Zat Knight passed the ball to Cahill and Cahill was FORCED to do what he did - which led to the foul - and FORCED the ref to have a brainfart and send him off.

it's impeccable logic...

[CAPSLOCK]

Sometimes, its best to have a bit of fun on the internet

You should read up on it

[Wandering Willy]

Continually having players sent off is something the manager should be doing something about.

Anyways I think that's excuse number 345, what's next?

Excuse number 345 or not, it's still valid.

Perhaps you'd like to share the stats that show that having 10 men for half a game has no negative effect on a team.

[Tombwfc]

I'm sure it doesn't help, it doesn't even come close to excusing how shit we are though. We were 2-0 down against Norwich, 1-0 down against Spurs, 1-0 down against Arsenal, conceded after a minute of the sending off against Swansea and put in the most pitiful display by 10 men I've ever seen against Everton (having already played like the away side for the opening 15 or so minutes).

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

To blame our woes on the red cards is just a poor attempt to mask the real issues

All the red cards have highlighted is his naivety...you're under the cosh, and need legs in the team , so he takes off Muamba

For me, this is the problem. It's hard enough playing the "Coyle way" with the full complement, almost impossible a man down. Look at how the champions crumbled against City at home when they went (or stayed) gung-ho with 10 men.

Sadly we've had lots of opportunity this season to play with 10 men but we're not getting any better - and it doesn't help when Muamba is sacrificed, as he has been so frequently this season whether we're behind on goals or men. He's been subbed seven times this season and it hasn't helped once. Against City we got a literally pointless goal back; at Liverpool we went from 0-1 to 1-3 without Muamba; at Villa he came off with two minutes left and us 2-0 up; at Arsenal we went from 0-1 to 0-3; at West Brom it was already 1-2; against Everton we went from 0-1 to 0-2; at Spurs we went from 0-1 to 0-3 and only avoided a proper good-old-fashioned tatering because Jussi made nine saves. Nine.

At Spurs – when it finally happened, after a weird 10-minute gap when Coyle seemed to be sussing whether we'd be alright without recourse to Steinsson – it was particularly daft: whether he called it 4-3-2 or 4-4-1 with KD dropping deeper, it still left Reo-Coker the only one of the five non-defenders who knew how to run and tackle. And this against a much better team with world-class midfielders who could afford to run us ragged, and who were already winning.

It was noted last season that Muamba and Stuart Holden led the league in tackles. When one of them is injured, the other becomes increasingly vital. Reo-Coker is a good player but he's not as good as Moo and Stu put together. If such a player existed, he'd be in the Champions League.

The thing is, we know what Coyle's doing. He's trying to chase the game, throw men forward, never give up, risk the heavy defeat in pursuit of the comeback, and after the last manager that was a blessed relief. It worked a couple of times at home last season - luckily against Birmingham, gloriously against Blackpool - but each time we only got a draw, at home, against a team that ended up relegated. With hindsight, it doesn't seem so glorious.

Sometimes you have to be sensible. Sometimes, like when you're playing a team on fire with nine successive wins and a much better line-up than you, you have to be sensible and keep the shape, even if you encourage your team to have a generally more attacking outlook. Sometimes - sharp intake of breath - you may even be better advised playing five in midfield.

Among other failings, the last manager seemed terrified of losing the lead, and his defensive outlook eventually it cost him his job. For all his bonhomie, the current manager seems unable to make the correct changes until it's too late. At the Lane, Coyle may have acknowledged his tactical naivety by bringing on Pratley - no Parker, but a willing runner and chaser - for Kevin Davies after 62 minutes. Trouble is, by then we were three down.

We can talk in circles forever about Megson and Coyle; squads; finance; hypotheticals. In the end, it doesn't matter. However it was assembled, Coyle has a squad which is far from the worst in the division. He has, for all the understandably expressed discontent, a fanbase who would love to see him succeed. What he doesn't have is much time.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Nice post DSB, can't argue with any of that!

It seems like either the Coyle Way or the highway, i.e. there's no Coyle Way v2 or v3. When we had Holden (and LCY) the Coyle Way would have been perfect. With those injuries we need to re-look at whether or not the players we have can play that way, and win.

Same after a sending off, or against a top team who plays 3 in the middle, the Coyle Way doesn't work in those situation so let's get Plan B.

I like being more offensive than defensive, home and away, but we've been kamikaze this year.

[Worthy4England]

Continually having players sent off is something the manager should be doing something about.

Anyways I think that's excuse number 345, what's next?

Excuse number 345 or not, it's still valid.

Perhaps you'd like to share the stats that show that having 10 men for half a game has no negative effect on a team.

Here's a stat i'll share. Looking at the red card count over Bolton's prem games the last ten years. Pre Coyle 19 games per red roughly (18.9 something).

Post Coyle 6 games per red. No discipline problem there then.

You want to prove your case, without spouting random unsupported stuff, go get your own stats, otherwise it's just supposition.

What I would say is I can guarantee the average number of points gained after having a player sent off will be above 0.

Looking at our last season's 5 sendings off.

Beat Blackburn 2-1 from being 0-0 when Mavis walked - change from draw to win
Lost to City 2-0 from being 2-0 down when Sturridge walked - no change
We were already winning 2-1 when Klasnic got sent off - no change
Arsenal 2-1 down when Cahill got sent off - lost 4-1 - no change in result
Birmingham - losing 1-0 when Jussi got sent off, went 2-0 down, came back for a draw

So last season, we gained 3 points after sendings off.

Which straw would you like to make a valiant leap for next?

[Wandering Willy]

You want to prove your case, without spouting random unsupported stuff, go get your own stats, otherwise it's just supposition.

What I would say is I can guarantee the average number of points gained after having a player sent off will be above 0.

Let's simplify, do you or do you not think that losing a player effects the chances of getting points/playing well?

If you think that it's merely supposition then you're wrong, but I suspect you know that.

It's being dismissed as one of the reasons for poor results so that it can be used as another stick with which to beat OC.

[officer_dibble]

Aye cos under Owen Coyle the formation and ill discipline mean we get more men sent off

[BWFC_Insane]

You want to prove your case, without spouting random unsupported stuff, go get your own stats, otherwise it's just supposition.

What I would say is I can guarantee the average number of points gained after having a player sent off will be above 0.

Let's simplify, do you or do you not think that losing a player effects the chances of getting points/playing well?

If you think that it's merely supposition then you're wrong, but I suspect you know that.

It's being dismissed as one of the reasons for poor results so that it can be used as another stick with which to beat OC.

We get a lot more players sent off with Coyle as manager than we did previously.

Clearly there is a problem there he has failed to address.

In any situation you can say 'manager not to blame, players should do better' be it performances, defending missed chances, or bad decisions to get themselves red carded.

Coyle is manager and takes overall responsibility for what happens, to the playing squad and their results. Given our poor disciplinary record that he hasnt been able to address he cant use that as an excuse any more than he can say 'they aren't playing as well as I tell them to'.....

[thebish]

Aye cos under Owen Coyle the formation and ill discipline mean we get more men sent off

was it formation or ill discipline that led to Cahill's card?

also - Gardner's - that was 2 yellows wasn't it? one of which was a foul on him.. was that formation or ill discipline?

[officer_dibble]

ill formation!

Gardner got sent off for being a bell end! Cahills fine, overturned

Still 4 sendings off in less than half a season. We can't whinge about playing with 10 men and use it as an excuse! ITs less of an excuse than the ghost goal v Everton in 97, when Todd was in charge. And we hit 40 points that year...which we'll be nowhere near this

[Hoboh]

You want to prove your case, without spouting random unsupported stuff, go get your own stats, otherwise it's just supposition.

What I would say is I can guarantee the average number of points gained after having a player sent off will be above 0.

Let's simplify, do you or do you not think that losing a player effects the chances of getting points/playing well?

If you think that it's merely supposition then you're wrong, but I suspect you know that.

It's being dismissed as one of the reasons for poor results so that it can be used as another stick with which to beat OC.

I am so p*ssed off with the way the "brighter future" post Megson is going I'm trying hard not to let rip at Coyle but when I read things like in bold above? Jesus H man Coyle needs beating with a feckin' tree trunk not a stick! If he "sticks" around we will go down, nice man but missing the ruthless bastard side you need to be successful, too close to players IMHO still thinks of himself as "one of the lads" I'd kiss Harriets ass for Big Sam back here now or some one of that ilk!

[Wandering Willy]

I've said before that I have some sympathy with the "buck stops with Coyle" position but this has to be applied using some amount of common sense. Clearly we had a tough start in terms of fixtures. Clearly we have suffered injuries to key players. Clearly we have little or no money to improve the squad. Gartside, the man who has guided us to a decade of top flight football has recognises that there are many factors at play here.

We have had 5 players sent off, 3 of them the ref's have been conned/made poor decisions, and the other 2 (Wheater and Gardner) were probably fair. Interestingly, some of the very people hammering Coyle for the dismissals are the same who squealed for Gardner's inclusion at the expense of Robbo. Gardner's first start - sent off. I that OC's fault? - at some point professional footballers who get paid handsomely for plying their trade have to take the blame for their actions on the pitch.

All I am advocating is that people at least take into account some of the circumstances that have surrounded the club and players in the past few months before proclaiming Coyle is shite. Given those circumstances it is unlikely anyone could have faired much better, yet we have those who want "anyone but Coyle".

There are however fair criticisms of Coyle to be made and I fully accept those. For me, the lack of willingness to change formation in certain away games and particularly the inclusion of KD as a starter is wearing very thin. Even the strongest KD supporters acknowledge that he is a shadow of his former self, yet still he is played. But again, I understand that NGog has been carrying an injury so maybe Coyle's hand was forced.

It has even been suggested that Coyle's formation is at fault for the red cards, and equally strangely it is said that Coyle is too friendly with the players. Unless you have been a fly on the dressing room wall it is not possible to know for sure what is said to the players and to what extent they are bollocked or not.

There are certainly valid sticks with which to beat Coyle but there are certain sticks that are actually long dog turds. Let's be a bit more selective which ones we pick up.

[boltonboris]

The Gardner one, I'd say was a ridiculous decision for the first booking, but the second one was stupidity after a bad touch.. (we've had 3 from mis-control) But you can't coach a first touch.. You either have it or you don't

[BWFC_Insane]

I've said before that I have some sympathy with the "buck stops with Coyle" position but this has to be applied using some amount of common sense. Clearly we had a tough start in terms of fixtures. Clearly we have suffered injuries to key players. Clearly we have little or no money to improve the squad. Gartside, the man who has guided us to a decade of top flight football has recognises that there are many factors at play here.

We have had 5 players sent off, 3 of them the ref's have been conned/made poor decisions, and the other 2 (Wheater and Gardner) were probably fair. Interestingly, some of the very people hammering Coyle for the dismissals are the same who squealed for Gardner's inclusion at the expense of Robbo. Gardner's first start - sent off. I that OC's fault? - at some point professional footballers who get paid handsomely for plying their trade have to take the blame for their actions on the pitch.

All I am advocating is that people at least take into account some of the circumstances that have surrounded the club and players in the past few months before proclaiming Coyle is shite. Given those circumstances it is unlikely anyone could have faired much better, yet we have those who want "anyone but Coyle".

There are however fair criticisms of Coyle to be made and I fully accept those. For me, the lack of willingness to change formation in certain away games and particularly the inclusion of KD as a starter is wearing very thin. Even the strongest KD supporters acknowledge that he is a shadow of his former self, yet still he is played. But again, I understand that NGog has been carrying an injury so maybe Coyle's hand was forced.

It has even been suggested that Coyle's formation is at fault for the red cards, and equally strangely it is said that Coyle is too friendly with the players. Unless you have been a fly on the dressing room wall it is not possible to know for sure what is said to the players and to what extent they are bollocked or not.

There are certainly valid sticks with which to beat Coyle but there are certain sticks that are actually long dog turds. Let's be a bit more selective which ones we pick up.

Bottom line is managers are judged by fans on results.

Results and league positions.

The little or no money argument wears a bit thin. Money has been spent. As I've shown Coyle has been able to add to the assets we already had for the most part. He's only sold/released two really significant players in terms of contribution to where we were prior to Coyle. In one of those cases he didn't have to sell, and in the other he may or may not have had a choice. But he's got the same players the last bloke had, plus a whole gaggle of his own choice, plenty of which can't get into the side. There are players who have sat on our bench whilst the teams been losing who he's been actively pursuing for 2 years....not just last minute panic buys.

End of the day Coyle won't be sacked, but he does need to get us out of this. We shouldn't be in the bottom three and no excuse will make me think we should.

[CrazyHorse]

But he's got the same players the last bloke had

You keep wheeling this out but your point fails because these players are all two years older than when the last bloke had them. So they're not really the same players at all.

[thebish]

I've said before that I have some sympathy with the "buck stops with Coyle" position but this has to be applied using some amount of common sense. Clearly we had a tough start in terms of fixtures. Clearly we have suffered injuries to key players. Clearly we have little or no money to improve the squad. Gartside, the man who has guided us to a decade of top flight football has recognises that there are many factors at play here.

We have had 5 players sent off, 3 of them the ref's have been conned/made poor decisions, and the other 2 (Wheater and Gardner) were probably fair. Interestingly, some of the very people hammering Coyle for the dismissals are the same who squealed for Gardner's inclusion at the expense of Robbo. Gardner's first start - sent off. I that OC's fault? - at some point professional footballers who get paid handsomely for plying their trade have to take the blame for their actions on the pitch.

All I am advocating is that people at least take into account some of the circumstances that have surrounded the club and players in the past few months before proclaiming Coyle is shite. Given those circumstances it is unlikely anyone could have faired much better, yet we have those who want "anyone but Coyle".

There are however fair criticisms of Coyle to be made and I fully accept those. For me, the lack of willingness to change formation in certain away games and particularly the inclusion of KD as a starter is wearing very thin. Even the strongest KD supporters acknowledge that he is a shadow of his former self, yet still he is played. But again, I understand that NGog has been carrying an injury so maybe Coyle's hand was forced.

It has even been suggested that Coyle's formation is at fault for the red cards, and equally strangely it is said that Coyle is too friendly with the players. Unless you have been a fly on the dressing room wall it is not possible to know for sure what is said to the players and to what extent they are bollocked or not.

There are certainly valid sticks with which to beat Coyle but there are certain sticks that are actually long dog turds. Let's be a bit more selective which ones we pick up.

Bottom line is managers are judged by fans on results.

indeed - but the argument being addressed here is whether Coyle is to blame for the 5 sendings off - which is what has been alleged.