Coyle - Time to go? [post-Everton]

[BWFC_Insane]

But he's got the same players the last bloke had

You keep wheeling this out but your point fails because these players are all two years older than when the last bloke had them. So they're not really the same players at all.

Exactly two years older, more experienced, more conditioned to the premiership, more settled at the club.

Should be a doddle.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've said before that I have some sympathy with the "buck stops with Coyle" position but this has to be applied using some amount of common sense. Clearly we had a tough start in terms of fixtures. Clearly we have suffered injuries to key players. Clearly we have little or no money to improve the squad. Gartside, the man who has guided us to a decade of top flight football has recognises that there are many factors at play here.

We have had 5 players sent off, 3 of them the ref's have been conned/made poor decisions, and the other 2 (Wheater and Gardner) were probably fair. Interestingly, some of the very people hammering Coyle for the dismissals are the same who squealed for Gardner's inclusion at the expense of Robbo. Gardner's first start - sent off. I that OC's fault? - at some point professional footballers who get paid handsomely for plying their trade have to take the blame for their actions on the pitch.

All I am advocating is that people at least take into account some of the circumstances that have surrounded the club and players in the past few months before proclaiming Coyle is shite. Given those circumstances it is unlikely anyone could have faired much better, yet we have those who want "anyone but Coyle".

There are however fair criticisms of Coyle to be made and I fully accept those. For me, the lack of willingness to change formation in certain away games and particularly the inclusion of KD as a starter is wearing very thin. Even the strongest KD supporters acknowledge that he is a shadow of his former self, yet still he is played. But again, I understand that NGog has been carrying an injury so maybe Coyle's hand was forced.

It has even been suggested that Coyle's formation is at fault for the red cards, and equally strangely it is said that Coyle is too friendly with the players. Unless you have been a fly on the dressing room wall it is not possible to know for sure what is said to the players and to what extent they are bollocked or not.

There are certainly valid sticks with which to beat Coyle but there are certain sticks that are actually long dog turds. Let's be a bit more selective which ones we pick up.

Bottom line is managers are judged by fans on results.

indeed - but the argument being addressed here is whether Coyle is to blame for the 5 sendings off - which is what has been alleged.

Course he is. He's the manager he takes the responsibility on his shoulders.

Its not like directly he can make players defend better but when they are useless Coyle as manager takes responsibility.

Thats his job. If players make silly decisions whether it be to get themselves sent off, miss chances, concede goals etc etc then irrespective of what it is, Coyle needs to address it.

The results are his job. If red cards are a problem and contributing to those results then he needs to find a way of stopping that. Same way he needs to find a way to make us play better.

End of the day thats what being a manager means, taking on the responsibility and doing something about it.

Forget the red cards, we'll just purely judge him on results.

And those results are dire right now!

[thebish]

I've said before that I have some sympathy with the "buck stops with Coyle" position but this has to be applied using some amount of common sense. Clearly we had a tough start in terms of fixtures. Clearly we have suffered injuries to key players. Clearly we have little or no money to improve the squad. Gartside, the man who has guided us to a decade of top flight football has recognises that there are many factors at play here.

We have had 5 players sent off, 3 of them the ref's have been conned/made poor decisions, and the other 2 (Wheater and Gardner) were probably fair. Interestingly, some of the very people hammering Coyle for the dismissals are the same who squealed for Gardner's inclusion at the expense of Robbo. Gardner's first start - sent off. I that OC's fault? - at some point professional footballers who get paid handsomely for plying their trade have to take the blame for their actions on the pitch.

All I am advocating is that people at least take into account some of the circumstances that have surrounded the club and players in the past few months before proclaiming Coyle is shite. Given those circumstances it is unlikely anyone could have faired much better, yet we have those who want "anyone but Coyle".

There are however fair criticisms of Coyle to be made and I fully accept those. For me, the lack of willingness to change formation in certain away games and particularly the inclusion of KD as a starter is wearing very thin. Even the strongest KD supporters acknowledge that he is a shadow of his former self, yet still he is played. But again, I understand that NGog has been carrying an injury so maybe Coyle's hand was forced.

It has even been suggested that Coyle's formation is at fault for the red cards, and equally strangely it is said that Coyle is too friendly with the players. Unless you have been a fly on the dressing room wall it is not possible to know for sure what is said to the players and to what extent they are bollocked or not.

There are certainly valid sticks with which to beat Coyle but there are certain sticks that are actually long dog turds. Let's be a bit more selective which ones we pick up.

Bottom line is managers are judged by fans on results.

indeed - but the argument being addressed here is whether Coyle is to blame for the 5 sendings off - which is what has been alleged.

Course he is. He's the manager he takes the responsibility on his shoulders.

Its not like directly he can make players defend better but when they are useless Coyle as manager takes responsibility.

Thats his job. If players make silly decisions whether it be to get themselves sent off, miss chances, concede goals etc etc then irrespective of what it is, Coyle needs to address it.

how can Coyle "address" a ref who gets it utterly wrong? Am I missing something??

[Wandering Willy]

Forget the red cards, we'll just purely judge him on results.

And there we have it.

The idea of judging a manger without taking into account factors which effect our performance and results is nonsense.

[BWFC_Insane]

Forget the red cards, we'll just purely judge him on results.

And there we have it.

The idea of judging a manger without taking into account factors which effect our performance and results is nonsense.

No its not.

As a manager I'm judged on performance, and yes there are factors that come into play that I can't change or alter, BUT ultimately irrespective of those I'm judged on performance against my objectives which I agree to every review period. If I fail badly enough then forget whether there was a terrible bout of flu that I couldn't stop my staff getting, or that there was a huge recession or our dept budget was halved, I'll still be expected to meet objectives. As a manager I take those things I can't really affect onto my shoulders and worry about them and know that they could play a part. I also have to have plans in place to mitigate any risks of those things happening/and our their impact if their occurence cannot be prevented/reduced.

Thats management. Thats the pressure of it.

Football is an even tougher environment than normal as its a competitive sport. But the principles still apply. Coyle takes the pressure of the job on and yes it may be harsh but when you're in the bottom three with terrible results over a prolonged period, there will be multiple factors, but one man is in charge of managing those and getting the right results.

[thebish]

well - call me Mr Mad McMadman, but I don't think I'm quite at the sack Coyle point yet. I still think it'll come reet - and I still think one day we'll look back and think - "bloody norah, that was a close shave, but it was worth keeping hold of him." I also don't think we will be relegated this season.

I also remember us mocking Newcastle for changing their manager more often than their underpants....

[The Axman]

well - call me Mr Mad McMadman, but I don't think I'm quite at the sack Coyle point yet. I still think it'll come reet - and I still think one day we'll look back and think - "bloody norah, that was a close shave, but it was worth keeping hold of him." I also don't think we will be relegated this season.

I also remember us mocking Newcastle for changing their manager more often than their underpants....

Ah but see, you're an optimist (you have to be in your job).
Me, I'm a pessimist. I'm bloody certain that relegation beckons.

[BWFC_Insane]

well - call me Mr Mad McMadman, but I don't think I'm quite at the sack Coyle point yet. I still think it'll come reet - and I still think one day we'll look back and think - "bloody norah, that was a close shave, but it was worth keeping hold of him." I also don't think we will be relegated this season.

I also remember us mocking Newcastle for changing their manager more often than their underpants....

Fair enough.

Its the people who say "we're going down" but still want to keep Coyle that worry me.

I still think he could keep us up, if he can recapture the spirit and effort he brought to the club when he first came and at some points last season.

I just think there are people out there who would be more likely to keep us up than Coyle.

And certainly don't think where we are now is excusable!

Thats just my feelings on it!

[boltonboris]

I'm a realist and I think we'll either get relegated or we won't

[The Axman]

I'm a realist and I think we'll either get relegated or we won't

[CrazyHorse]

I also remember us mocking Newcastle for changing their manager more often than their underpants....

I take your point, but to compare us to Newcastle is kinda stretching it. They've had 13 managers in the last ten years, we've had 4.

[Prufrock]

The Gardner one, I'd say was a ridiculous decision for the first booking, but the second one was stupidity after a bad touch.. (we've had 3 from mis-control) But you can't coach a first touch.. You either have it or you don't

Gardner absolutely cleaned one of theirs out in the first five mins. Most obvious booking you've even seen, but got away with it presumably coz was early doors, so absolutely no reason he can complain about that one. Shit touches have ended badly for us recently.

[Worthy4England]

You want to prove your case, without spouting random unsupported stuff, go get your own stats, otherwise it's just supposition.

What I would say is I can guarantee the average number of points gained after having a player sent off will be above 0.

Let's simplify, do you or do you not think that losing a player effects the chances of getting points/playing well?

If you think that it's merely supposition then you're wrong, but I suspect you know that.

It's being dismissed as one of the reasons for poor results so that it can be used as another stick with which to beat OC.

In the spirit of simplification - I agree that losing a player affects the chances of getting points/doing well.

That said, even with 10, you would expect to improve on the points position when a player got sent off some of the time - which we haven't. We did on 2 out of 5 occasions last season.

Now I've unequivocally said it's harder to get points with 10 than 11, how about you acknowledge that a team that had an average of a red card every 19 games pre-Coyle, and now is chugging along at the rate of a red card every 6 games must be influenced somewhat by the Manager's approach to discipline?

A similar straightforward statement like I made would do it, instead of throwing random lift-raft #362 to the Manager.

Maybe an acknowledgement that despite all the extenuating circumstances, we are performing below expectations, look poor organisationally and that buck stops with the manager.

I await with eager anticipation, although I'll take the precaution of not holding my breath.

[as]

I just hope Owen proves us all wrong.

We wanted him, we got him and despite the results he's still popular with the fans, just.

I'd like nothing more than for him to knuckle down and get some results before the axe falls.

He's had no money to spend, terrible luck with injuries and he's been badly let down by his players this season. The stuuuuupid red cards sum up this season for me.

C'mon Owen - smash the brummies and onwards and upwards.

[Hoboh]

I just hope Owen proves us all wrong.

We wanted him, we got him and despite the results he's still popular with the fans, just.

I'd like nothing more than for him to knuckle down and get some results before the axe falls.

He's had no money to spend, terrible luck with injuries and he's been badly let down by his players this season. The stuuuuupid red cards sum up this season for me.

C'mon Owen - smash the brummies and onwards and upwards.

What worries me is we waste time and money on loan signings who seem to be deemed not good enough to play, an old man striker who we signed because he's good in the dressing room and a mate of the gaffer, refuse to raise funds on a sellable asset which then starves us of funds to chase imaginary targets all summer!!

[wanderers_on_tour]

If only we'd got Thiago in the summer..wow..

[officer_dibble]

He'd be playing right back tomorrow?

[TKIZ!]

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[Wandering Willy]

Now I've unequivocally said it's harder to get points with 10 than 11, how about you acknowledge that a team that had an average of a red card every 19 games pre-Coyle, and now is chugging along at the rate of a red card every 6 games must be influenced somewhat by the Manager's approach to discipline?

It's possible that the dismissals are influenced by Coyle's approach to discipline but to what extent I couldn't say. I gave my thoughts on the red cards further above in the thread but my opinion is that they have been harsh in 3 cases and the players have to take responsibility in at least 2 of the others. How exactly Coyle failed to prevent, or in deed could have prevented the offences I'm not sure. Just as I cannot prove they're not partly down to him, nor can you prove they are. I can't give an unequivocal answer.

Maybe an acknowledgement that despite all the extenuating circumstances, we are performing below expectations, look poor organisationally and that buck stops with the manager.

I'll acknowledge we were poor vs Sunderland and vs West Brom in the second half. We're going to be poor at times vs teams of our ilk in any season. That always happens whether we're struggling or not.

You've hit on one of our main differences of opinion though. The tough schedule and red cards in a third of our fixtures has disrupted the team. I am struggling to really get a feel for how good/bad we really are until we can get a decent run with 11 on the pitch in games that we could realistically get something. You clearly see more than me in terms of information to make up your mind.

The"buck stops" view is the fallback position for the ABC'er's. I have said before that I have some sympathy with that view but as you acknowledge there are extenuating circumstances. In any business, sport or otherwise, important decisions are generally made taking into account such circumstances. It would be folly to do otherwise. My position is there is not a manager around who would not have struggled given the same issues Coyle has faced. To what extent they could have faired better is speculation/opinion but unlike you I believe we may have the best we could get in charge.

Apologies for the late reply

[CAPSLOCK]

Shite

As posted above, there wasn't a game where the red card could be said to have affected the outcome