What are you watching tonight?

[thebish]

It looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.

Bollox. An A4 paper sized cage looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them either.
I understand your point on this and everything but that's the same crap the battery farmers come out with to justify the 18 hour-day cycle egg production they force them into. It's not natural, but it's ok if you lot do it? A hen isn't meant to be held upside down.

have you any experience of carrying chickens or getting them out of restricted cages?

as for being "meant to be held upside down" - what kind of argument is that??? humans were not "meant to be held upside down" - yet it never hurt my kids to be dangled upside down by their legs - in fact they used to beg me not only to dangle them upside down, but to swing them round also...

I doubt the chickens "enjoy it" - but my own observations suggest that they are less stressed and panicky - and the less stress the better, we find. (you may have found differently - in which case - I'd love to hear about it.)

[CrazyHorse]

It looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.

Bollox. An A4 paper sized cage looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them either.
I understand your point on this and everything but that's the same crap the battery farmers come out with to justify the 18 hour-day cycle egg production they force them into. It's not natural, but it's ok if you lot do it? A hen isn't meant to be held upside down.

have you any experience of carrying chickens or getting them out of restricted cages?

None whatsoever. But a hen isn't meant to be held upside down, is it? Tell me that's natural. Really, please do.

I did once sub-contract at a facility that was trying to get the daily cycle of their hens down to 15 hours. I had nowt really to do with the wellbeing of the birds, I was programming the software for the faecal removal conveyor. Nevertheless, it was still pretty distressing to me.

I'm just saying that your justification sounds pretty similar to the crap they came out with. A means to an end, and all that.

[thebish]

It looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.

Bollox. An A4 paper sized cage looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them either.
I understand your point on this and everything but that's the same crap the battery farmers come out with to justify the 18 hour-day cycle egg production they force them into. It's not natural, but it's ok if you lot do it? A hen isn't meant to be held upside down.

have you any experience of carrying chickens or getting them out of restricted cages?

None whatsoever. But a hen isn't meant to be held upside down, is it? Tell me that's natural. Really, please do.

I did once sub-contract at a facility that was trying to get the daily cycle of their hens down to 15 hours. I had nowt really to do with the wellbeing of the birds, I was programming the software for the faecal removal conveyor. Nevertheless, it was still pretty distressing to me.

I'm just saying that your justification sounds pretty similar to the crap they came out with. A means to an end, and all that.

again - why does "not meant to be held upside down" equate to hurting them? can you explain that?

I have seen no evidence at all in my personal experience that suggests holding them upside down for a minute or two hurts or distresses them - in fact, as I explained - they end up more distressed and panicked if you have to drag them out with wings beating from narrow barred cages.

the sheds are distressing... that's why we do what we do...

[CrazyHorse]

again - why does "not meant to be held upside down" equate to hurting them? can you explain that?
A hen isn't meant to be held upside down, is it? Tell me that's natural. Really, please do.

I have seen no evidence at all in my personal experience that suggests holding them upside down for a minute or two hurts or distresses them - in fact, as I explained - they end up more distressed and panicked if you have to drag them out with wings beating from narrow barred cages.
I understand your point on this and everything but that's the same crap the battery farmers come out with to justify the 18 hour-day cycle egg production they force them into. It's not natural, but it's ok if you lot do it?

the sheds are distressing... that's why we do what we do...
The cry of all animal abusers, the World over.

[Lord Kangana]

I'm sure its the same principle as shoving a bag on animal's heads to calm them down. Lesser of two evils.

[CrazyHorse]

I'm sure its the same principle as shoving a bag on animal's heads to calm them down. Lesser of two evils.

Yeah, fair doos, and all that.
But it'd be nice for the righteous ones to acknowledge that rather than spout that it looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.
I mean they're not going to. But it'd be nice if they did.

[Prufrock]

What the f*ck does 'natural' mean? I don't see how it is any less natural for a hen to be picked up upside down by a human than it is for a hen to picked up the right way by a human, they're not designed for either.

Anyway, if we're talking right, I don't actually think it matters if it distresses the hen, as long as it is less in total than the whole life's worth of distress they'd suffer otherwise. Sure, if it does distress them the way they do it, the ones doing it should say, 'yes, they don't like it, but it's brief and overall well worth it once we've got them out', but the experts here are saying it doesn't, or rather have said it doesn't seem to. Seems fair enough

[Gooner Girl]

Crazy horse. We work for a charity that rescues animals. Do you really think they would let us handle them in a way that causes them pain? And why would we want to cause them pain given we care enough to spend a whole day in the freezing cold rescuing them? All very well criticising when you're sitting on your arse in front of the computer stuffing your Christmas chocolate but if you care enough to be concerned perhaps you should think about getting out there and volunteering for your local animal charity?

Whatever way the hens are transported they are going to be stressed. They are out of the cages and into the crates within a minute max and it doesn't cause them any pain. Am sure they would prefer that minute of stress to the ones that had to stay in their cages and will be slaughtered within the next few days. Meanwhile today those chickens that bish was carrying will be waking up to a lifetime of pampering and luxury as someone's precious pet.

[thebish]

I'm sure its the same principle as shoving a bag on animal's heads to calm them down. Lesser of two evils.

Yeah, fair doos, and all that.
But it'd be nice for the righteous ones to acknowledge that rather than spout that it looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.
I mean they're not going to. But it'd be nice if they did.

Hoss - you're obviously very cross about this, and I'm not sure where your "righteous ones" label comes from.

I am very sorry if my carrying chickens by their legs to the crates rather than any other method offends your sensibilities. If I believed for a moment that it hurts them - I REALLY do not believe it does (whether it is "natural" - whatever that means - or not - it really does not seem to hurt them - they show no signs at all of being hurt or in distress when carried that way) - then I wouldn't do it. my belief is based on my direct personal experience over many years.

clearly (for some reason unspecified) you have a firm belief that it does hurt them - fair enough - I'll live with your disapproval.

If you ever want to join in and come see for yourself - you will always be welcome. (really!)

[thebish]

again - why does "not meant to be held upside down" equate to hurting them? can you explain that?
A hen isn't meant to be held upside down, is it? Tell me that's natural. Really, please do.

I didn't say it is "natural" - I'm not sure what that even means - is it "natural" for a human to carry a chicken at all?? What I said is that it doesn't appear to hurt them or distress them and that (in my experience) the other way appears to distress them more. You haven't yet told me why you believe it HURTS them, though you keep repeating the allegation that it does.

I have seen no evidence at all in my personal experience that suggests holding them upside down for a minute or two hurts or distresses them - in fact, as I explained - they end up more distressed and panicked if you have to drag them out with wings beating from narrow barred cages.
I understand your point on this and everything but that's the same crap the battery farmers come out with to justify the 18 hour-day cycle egg production they force them into. It's not natural, but it's ok if you lot do it?

there is plentiful evidence - not really disputed - that the conditions they are kept in harms the chickens. There is no evidence i am aware of that shows that chickens are harmed or distressed by being carried by their legs. So I'm not really sure what your point is here. I have never claimed anything I have done is "natural" - merely that it doesn't appear to hurt or distress them. my objection to battery hen farming is not about it being "natural" - but about it harming and distressing the chickens.

the sheds are distressing... that's why we do what we do...
The cry of all animal abusers, the World over.
"what we do" meaning - "making the effort to ensure that at least some of these chickens get to see some kind of a life outside of the sheds". If that is the cry of all animal abusers the world over - then it isn't one I've ever heard! If you're alleging that GG and I are "animal abusers" - then, you're entitled (and welcome) to your opinion, but I think my conscience is clear enough not to lose too much sleep over your allegation.

[CrazyHorse]

I'm sure its the same principle as shoving a bag on animal's heads to calm them down. Lesser of two evils.

Yeah, fair doos, and all that.
But it'd be nice for the righteous ones to acknowledge that rather than spout that it looks horrible but it doesn't hurt them.
I mean they're not going to. But it'd be nice if they did.

Hoss - you're obviously very cross about this, and I'm not sure where your "righteous ones" label comes from.

I am very sorry if my carrying chickens by their legs to the crates rather than any other method offends your sensibilities. If I believed for a moment that it hurts them - I REALLY do not believe it does (whether it is "natural" - whatever that means - or not - it really does not seem to hurt them - they show no signs at all of being hurt or in distress when carried that way) - then I wouldn't do it. my belief is based on my direct personal experience over many years.

clearly (for some reason unspecified) you have a firm belief that it does hurt them - fair enough - I'll live with your disapproval.

If you ever want to join in and come see for yourself - you will always be welcome. (really!)

I'm more of a grumpy get than cross about it, to be fair.
Without a doubt you two's hearts are in the right place but it wasn't just me who thought holding them upsidedown looked wrong. You can claim til you're blue in the face that it doesn't hurt them but you haven't got a clue if it does or not; neither have I. No one does; except maybe Dr Doolittle will if he ever asks one.

[CrazyHorse]

Crazy horse. We work for a charity that rescues animals. Do you really think they would let us handle them in a way that causes them pain? And why would we want to cause them pain given we care enough to spend a whole day in the freezing cold rescuing them? All very well criticising when you're sitting on your arse in front of the computer stuffing your Christmas chocolate but if you care enough to be concerned perhaps you should think about getting out there and volunteering for your local animal charity?

This here. This is the sort of thing I meant by righteous.

[thebish]

I'm more of a grumpy get than cross about it, to be fair.
Without a doubt you two's hearts are in the right place but it wasn't just me who thought holding them upsidedown looked wrong. You can claim til you're blue in the face that it doesn't hurt them but you haven't got a clue if it does or not; neither have I. No one does; except maybe Dr Doolittle will if he ever asks one.

yeah - I did say that it took me a long time to accept too - I watched others doing it for years - and tut-tutted at them Hoss-stylee.

The "clue" that I have that it doesn't hurt them or distress them is that they go completely still and relaxed, and when you lay them in the crates they don't struggle and fight... my experience of hurt/distressed chickens is that they create a scene - flapping and screeching..

of course I am not 100% certain - you couldn't be without being a chicken - but then neither can you be 100% certain (without being a chicken) that any other way does not hurt/distress them - we only have observation to go on, and my observation is that they do not act like hurt/distressed chickens when you carry them to a crate by the legs - in much the same way as human children are not hurt when you dangle them by their legs, despite the possibility that you might claim it is not "natural"...

when GG said "it doesn't hurt them" - and you wrote "bollox" - you came across as quite sure that it does.

[thebish]

Crazy horse. We work for a charity that rescues animals. Do you really think they would let us handle them in a way that causes them pain? And why would we want to cause them pain given we care enough to spend a whole day in the freezing cold rescuing them? All very well criticising when you're sitting on your arse in front of the computer stuffing your Christmas chocolate but if you care enough to be concerned perhaps you should think about getting out there and volunteering for your local animal charity?

This here. This is the sort of thing I meant by righteous.

to be fair, though - that was AFTER you called her an animal abuser!

[Bruce Rioja]

Bloody hell - I wish I hadn't asked

Many thanks for the explanations, GG and thebish. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, and it's an excellent thing that you're doing. Would love to be able to keep a couple myself.

Hoss - I'm not sure where your indignation's coming from. I can let you know how they slaughter pigs if you'd like a quick run-down on animal cruelty (first hand account too). And I find it quite staggering that you used the term "Bollox" in relation to someone's practical account of a subject that you clearly don't know the first thing about.

[bobo the clown]

to be fair, though - that was AFTER you called her an animal abuser!

to be equally fair, I think that was me.

But I was joking.

I think.

Maybe.

Overall.

[Worthy4England]

to be fair, though - that was AFTER you called her an animal abuser!

to be equally fair, I think that was me.

But I was joking.

I think.

Maybe.

Overall.

I think everyone should now put their differences aside, maybe over a KFC or something...

[bobo the clown]

Nando's. We only want the best.

I'm going to ask for mine upside down.

[Worthy4England]

[TANGODANCER]

So,everybody's watching Chicken-Shack tonight then?