The Politics Thread

[Bijou Bob]

As someone stuck in the middle of the great health revolution, I can tell you it's Carneau's out there. GP's don't want the changes or don't understand them on the whole. Those that do, want it for one reason - the cash to be made.

For some unfathomable reason, Lansley seemed to think that GP's would sit round a table and sort out local health care like a bridge club meeting. No one seems to have asked the questions like 1. Who provides the commissioning expertise 2. Who provides the admin support 3. Who manages the finance etc etc

GP's aren't actually paid NHS staff, they're subbies, individual private businesses commissioned by local health care managers to provide a service. Handing the NHS over to GP's is therefore handing it over to private business. Handing over huge wads of public cash to private businessmen is a recipe for disaster and utterly naieve if you expect any of it to come back into the public domain.

The Jag dealers are gonna have a beano come next April.

[Worthy4England]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook ... ingtherich

Interesting to see a French socialist candidate's radical pledge to increase the top rate of income tax to 45%.

So sorta less the the current top rate in the UK?

My only real comment on Tax, is the headline rate of income tax isn't the problem, although it's the thing that makes the headlines.

The overall tax burden (direct and indirect) should be made visible whatever colour of Government is in power, like the "transparency" that they try to force on any other venture that takes money off you in the UK.

I'm all in favour of having a maximum "threshold" on tax (of any kind) beyond which you should bve able to claim relief - so add up all the Income Tax, indirect taxes (petrol, fags, beer, VAT etc. etc.). Not too tough to administer - as everyone does Self-Assessment.

[BWFC_Insane]

As someone stuck in the middle of the great health revolution, I can tell you it's Carneau's out there. GP's don't want the changes or don't understand them on the whole. Those that do, want it for one reason - the cash to be made.

For some unfathomable reason, Lansley seemed to think that GP's would sit round a table and sort out local health care like a bridge club meeting. No one seems to have asked the questions like 1. Who provides the commissioning expertise 2. Who provides the admin support 3. Who manages the finance etc etc

GP's aren't actually paid NHS staff, they're subbies, individual private businesses commissioned by local health care managers to provide a service. Handing the NHS over to GP's is therefore handing it over to private business. Handing over huge wads of public cash to private businessmen is a recipe for disaster and utterly naieve if you expect any of it to come back into the public domain.

The Jag dealers are gonna have a beano come next April.

Which is what nobody notices. I think there are enough blocks in place to stop them "pocketing" the money for themselves or their practice like. But still it leaves a huge issue as to what expertise they have, the fact the vast majority dont want to do it and don't think they should. And that it leaves a huge conflict for them. Now they're worrying about a local healthcare budget as well as treating their patients. So you know when you see you're GP in the future and they refuse you a referral or treatment then you have to ask "is this cos they don't think thats the right medical decision or cos they're overspent and worrying about their bottom line".

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook ... ingtherich

Interesting to see a French socialist candidate's radical pledge to increase the top rate of income tax to 45%.

So sorta less the the current top rate in the UK?

Yes, which is why it's interesting!

And I agree that it's only part of the story and the rest is poorly understood and under-discussed.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

GP's aren't actually paid NHS staff, they're subbies, individual private businesses commissioned by local health care managers to provide a service.

A state of affairs that David Starkey highlighted well on Question Time, along with a politcally incorrect but, I think, largely accurate picture he painted of what a cushy number most of our GPs are on.

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17295718" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To all those who think privitisation is the answer to everything!

He said: "When it was one industry, British Rail, it was subsidised to the tune of around £1.5bn in today's money and at the moment it's getting £4bn of taxpayers' money.

"The thing that has changed is that it has been broken up into lots of little bits, lots of different operators, lots of various engineering companies, all sorts of bits are being privatised and broken up, and that's where the cost is."

Has privitisation of the railways improved quality? No.

Has it driven down cost to passengers? No.

Well surely its reduced the burden on the taxpayer? No.

[The Axman]

I notice that there isn't a voting button for 'Refuse to Vote'.
Therefore I refuse to vote in the poll.
Democracy is just mob rule under another guise.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17295718

To all those who think privitisation is the answer to everything!

Well I don't think there are too many of those around?

Those figures are interesting, if they're correct... it would be interesting to see how many more passengers there are these days and how much has been spent on upgrading the train/railway/station stock over the period - accessing capital to do this being one of the main reasons for privatisation, of course.

But it's like the NHS debate where our GPs get paid almost twice as much as their French, German and Dutch counterparts - why are our train staff paid so much more than those on the continent?

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17295718

To all those who think privitisation is the answer to everything!

Well I don't think there are too many of those around?

Those figures are interesting, if they're correct... it would be interesting to see how many more passengers there are these days and how much has been spent on upgrading the train/railway/station stock over the period - accessing capital to do this being one of the main reasons for privatisation, of course.
But it's like the NHS debate where our GPs get paid almost twice as much as their French, German and Dutch counterparts - why are our train staff paid so much more than those on the continent?

1) Have you been on a train recently? And have you also not seen the news of massive complaints of overcrowding on major commuting routes all over the country? A lack of carriages and a general degradation of the service? Its got worse, much worse.

2) GP's are private contractors and as such not paid a salary by anyone other than themselves.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

1) Have you been on a train recently? And have you also not seen the news of massive complaints of overcrowding on major commuting routes all over the country? A lack of carriages and a general degradation of the service? Its got worse, much worse.

2) GP's are private contractors and as such not paid a salary by anyone other than themselves.

1) Yes. I use the Virgin Service between London Euston and Liverpool or Chester pretty regularly, either for work or to get back to where my parents live/my golf club. My experience is that the service is hardly ever delayed and that the Pendolino trains are very comfortable, clean and well-equipped (plenty of tables, sockets and wi-fi, with a decent shop). The service is now down to two hours flat, when it was 30-40 mins more than that ten years ago. In short, it's excellent, and compares favourably with anything I've ever experienced in Europe, including plenty of time in Germany and 12 months living in the Netherlands.

Now, I know not all services are anything like this. I get an overground train everyday for the 5 mins from Clapham Junction to Victoria (these come from places all over the South) and these are more crowded and less pleasant. I also have a friend who commutes between Hastings and London everday (mental) and her Facebook is an almost constant stream of vitriol against Southeastern.

2) Yes, but what % of the NHS budget do they account for?

[BWFC_Insane]

1) Have you been on a train recently? And have you also not seen the news of massive complaints of overcrowding on major commuting routes all over the country? A lack of carriages and a general degradation of the service? Its got worse, much worse.

2) GP's are private contractors and as such not paid a salary by anyone other than themselves.

1) Yes. I use the Virgin Service between London Euston and Liverpool or Chester pretty regularly, either for work or to get back to where my parents live/my golf club. My experience is that the service is hardly ever delayed and that the Pendolino trains are very comfortable, clean and well-equipped (plenty of tables, sockets and wi-fi, with a decent shop). The service is now down to two hours flat, when it was 30-40 mins more than that ten years ago. In short, it's excellent, and compares favourably with anything I've ever experienced in Europe, including plenty of time in Germany and 12 months living in the Netherlands.

Now, I know not all services are anything like this. I get an overground train everyday for the 5 mins from Clapham Junction to Victoria (these come from places all over the South) and these are more crowded and less pleasant. I also have a friend who commutes between Hastings and London everday (mental) and her Facebook is an almost constant stream of vitriol against Southeastern.

2) Yes, but what % of the NHS budget do they account for?

The trains into Manchester are terrible. The busy commuter routes in and around London are equally awful I'm lead to believe.

I think the longer distance routes aren't too bad as you say. However, im sure i recall hearing the overall satisfaction, and time measures still show its worse than it used be prior to privatisation.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

As I say, one thing I'd be interested in is what the change in numbers travelling into London and Manchester has been in that time.

[thebish]

As I say, one thing I'd be interested in is what the change in numbers travelling into London and Manchester has been in that time.

can't be THAT specific - but here's a broad brush idea...

[Prufrock]

Virgin I have nothing but praise for (well, apart from the time they charged me £110 for a single because I forgot my railcard, despite later sending them proof I did indeed have a valid one at that time- shithouses). Very rare they aren't on time, in fact often early. If you book early the price isn't horrendous, always get a seat.

Northern Rail on the other hand. Well....I'd start with a potato peeler and some Sarson's.

[BWFC_Insane]

As I say, one thing I'd be interested in is what the change in numbers travelling into London and Manchester has been in that time.

If they've gone up then surely that's to the advantage of the super efficient and competition lead, profit driven private sector running those services?

Oh......ooooopps.

[Bruce Rioja]

Seriously, from experience, I'd say that there's absolutely no better way to travel between Manchester and London than on a Virgin Train. In fact, I'd say that the whole thing's a pretty pleasurable experience. BWFC_I has either clearly never been on one or is just banging his tinny-sounding drum again.

[Harry Genshaw]

It concerns me that when we're talking about a £4BN subsidy that is almost three times what was needed prior to the great privatisation feck up - folk want to criticise the salary of the workers

[BWFC_Insane]

Seriously, from experience, I'd say that there's absolutely no better way to travel between Manchester and London than on a Virgin Train. In fact, I'd say that the whole thing's a pretty pleasurable experience. BWFC_I has either clearly never been on one or is just banging his tinny-sounding drum again.

Oh come on. As I've already said some of the long distance services are good, if you get past what can sometimes be scandalous prices.

However, the everyday commuter services in several places have been shocking. Thankfully I don't very often but train it into manchester during morning rush hour, it's shockingly bad.

[Bruce Rioja]

but train it into manchester during morning rush hour, it's shockingly bad.

Should you ever have the misfortune to have to use the DLR at rush hour then you'll think that the train into MCR is a birthday present. That said, I have tried to board it at Salford Crescent when it's been that full that it's been physically impossible for anyone to get on it, and this was the airport train!

[Lord Kangana]

I sat through (literally, like all those 12-hour rail journey horror stories, I was there) the great restructuring done late 90's early 2000's when the West Coast Mainline was being upgraded. With public money, lets be clear. And thats the issue. The service has improved, but we've paid for it, like we always did. So why do we need shareholders to take a dividend when they have been the minority investors?