Jaffka's gossip thread on the ins and outs at the 'Bok

[SmokinFrazier]

Muamba is far more limited than Andrews is though. As much as I like him, there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba. He's a very limited player and that isn't something you can always play around.

Andrews is a better all-round player and that versatility is essential when making the transition from defence to attack. Muamba is purely a defensive player because of his inability to do anything with the ball.

[RealLifeHobbit]

Under Hodgson and Trapattoni his primary job has been to mind the shop rather than charge forward. We could use some of that.

Insert Coyle deprogramming joke.

Which is certainly something we need, the fact we lacked a player in the middle of the park who supported the defence and shored up the centre of midfield on a consistent basis last season was surely a contributory factor towards our relegation.

In fact, no we didn't ... well, not till his terrible illness.

We had Muamba, one of the best in the game at that ... just that Uncle Owen didn't like him.

Hence my use of the phrase "on a consistent basis". If it came across as though I was discounting Muamba as a player who does not possess a high work rate and the ability to control our central midfield, that was not my intention. What I meant was, he was not always present, firstly due to questionable selection policies and then due to the unfortunate occurrence at White Hart Lane.

As for those who hailed Reo-Coker, I don't think he was consistent, nor was he anywhere near as talented as Muamba at breaking up play and commanding the midfield's defensive duties, and although his work-rate was high on most occasions, he seemed to run around in circles whereas Muamba is more intelligent about where he applies his work-rate and who he harrasses.

[RealLifeHobbit]

Under Hodgson and Trapattoni his primary job has been to mind the shop rather than charge forward. We could use some of that.

Insert Coyle deprogramming joke.

Which is certainly something we need, the fact we lacked a player in the middle of the park who supported the defence and shored up the centre of midfield on a consistent basis last season was surely a contributory factor towards our relegation.

In fact, no we didn't ... well, not till his terrible illness.

We had Muamba, one of the best in the game at that ... just that Uncle Owen didn't like him.

aren't you on holiday somewhere exotic??

I suppose the South East makes a change from Lancaster...

[Wandering Willy]

Muamba is far more limited than Andrews is though. As much as I like him, there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba. He's a very limited player and that isn't something you can always play around.

Andrews is a better all-round player and that versatility is essential when making the transition from defence to attack. Muamba is purely a defensive player because of his inability to do anything with the ball.

As a matter of interest, how many times have you seen Andrews play?

[SmokinFrazier]

Muamba is far more limited than Andrews is though. As much as I like him, there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba. He's a very limited player and that isn't something you can always play around.

Andrews is a better all-round player and that versatility is essential when making the transition from defence to attack. Muamba is purely a defensive player because of his inability to do anything with the ball.

As a matter of interest, how many times have you seen Andrews play?

The last time I didn't watch him regularly was when he was at Ipswich. I saw most of his games at WBA and have seen all of his recent Ireland appearances.

Weirdly, that's about the third or fourth time someone has asked me that question - presumably because they disagree and think I'm talking nonsense. Unlike most on here, I watch football from all over the place and not just Bolton.

[Wandering Willy]

No, not accusing you of talking nonsense.

I'm genuinely interested in the opinion of someone who's seen a bit more of him than a few Euro12 appearances for a shit side.

[Puskas]

Weirdly, that's about the third or fourth time someone has asked me that question - presumably because they disagree and think I'm talking nonsense. Unlike most on here, I watch football from all over the place and not just Bolton.

I think the main reason folk think you're talking nonsense is because you can come out with a phrase like:

there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba

Which is patently silly, and tends to make me, at least, distrust your other claims...

[Worthy4England]

The last time I didn't watch him regularly was when he was at Ipswich. I saw most of his games at WBA and have seen all of his recent Ireland appearances.

Most of his games at WBA - and I guess by default at the Dingles? Fine with that, but then maybe the question should be "How many times have you seen Muamba play if you're spending all your time watching games that Andrews is playing in?"

[bobo the clown]

Weirdly, that's about the third or fourth time someone has asked me that question - presumably because they disagree and think I'm talking nonsense. Unlike most on here, I watch football from all over the place and not just Bolton.

I think the main reason folk think you're talking nonsense is because you can come out with a phrase like:

there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba

Which is patently silly, and tends to make me, at least, distrust your other claims...

... &. frankly, if you were watching WBA loads last year you'd not really have "noticed" him as he's not really that sort of player. Much more the workhorse. Unless you're a tactical God, of course. You know ... "people who know football" & all that.

[bobo the clown]

Under Hodgson and Trapattoni his primary job has been to mind the shop rather than charge forward. We could use some of that.

Insert Coyle deprogramming joke.

In fact, no we didn't ... well, not till his terrible illness.

We had Muamba, one of the best in the game at that ... just that Uncle Owen didn't like him.

aren't you on holiday somewhere exotic??

I suppose the South East makes a change from Lancaster...

Me ... you silly-Billy.

Yes, except holidays end ... & I'm catching up.

[Lord Kangana]

Lets not fall in to the trap of putting Muamba on a pedalo because of his recent unfortunate illness.

Yes, good work rate and great tackler, very quick. First touch like me, and not the best at shooting though.

I can see the point the lad is trying to make, this Andrews fella looks competitive, aggressive, tackle-y etc etc. Bearing in mind we are dropping down a level, I'm sold that he'll make a decent player in the Championship if he has a reasonable first touch and isn't a snail. Unless of course, he's played in goal or something.

[plymouth wanderer]

Lets not fall in to the trap of putting Muamba on a pedalo because of his recent unfortunate illness.

Yes, good work rate and great tackler, very quick. First touch like me, and not the best at shooting though.

I can see the point the lad is trying to make, this Andrews fella looks competitive, aggressive, tackle-y etc etc. Bearing in mind we are dropping down a level, I'm sold that he'll make a decent player in the Championship if he has a reasonable first touch and isn't a snail. Unless of course, he's played in goal or something.

agreed

[Tombwfc]

I don't think it's Andranik/Holden/Al-Habsi-fying Muamba to suggest he's better than Keith Andrews.

I agree with you on the rest though, Andrews will be fine at the level we'll be playing at.

[Prufrock]

It's not redeculous to suggest he's probably better at shooting than Fab. Fab wouldn't get the 9 in 20 Andrews got for Ipswich in the Central Lancs under 9s league!

All round Fab, of course, but I do think Andrews has something to offer short term.

[SmokinFrazier]

Weirdly, that's about the third or fourth time someone has asked me that question - presumably because they disagree and think I'm talking nonsense. Unlike most on here, I watch football from all over the place and not just Bolton.

I think the main reason folk think you're talking nonsense is because you can come out with a phrase like:

there probably wasn't a player in the Premier League last season who was as incapable of passing, dribbling or shooting as Muamba

Which is patently silly, and tends to make me, at least, distrust your other claims...

As much as I like Muamba, everything I said there was true. He is inept with the ball. He's clumsy, has no composure and a severe lack of technical ability. I can't remember who it was but a pundit on MOTD last year commented on his passing ability and correctly mentioned that his posture is wrong, leaving him off balance for every single pass. He can't shoot or dribble either. Have you ever seen him make a good through ball or a 15+ yard pass which was successful? He's a very limited player when he has the ball.

Muamba has ability, of course, but we shouldn't make him out to be more than what he actually is because of his condition. He was good last season but he is terrible technically. He is a defensive player and, thankfully, isn't required to pass, shoot or dribble. That doesn't change the fact that when he does try those things, he's useless at them.

Muamba is maybe a better player than Andrews. However, he's also far more limited in certain areas.

[Wandering Willy]

Muamba is maybe a better player than Andrews.

Andrews is a better all-round player

[SmokinFrazier]

The key difference is "all-round". Plenty of players were better all-rounders than, say, Claude Makalele but he was the best player in the world in his role for a long time.

Muamba may be a better player than Andrews. Andrews is a better all-rounder though. There is a distinct difference between those two comments.

[RealLifeHobbit]

aren't you on holiday somewhere exotic??

I suppose the South East makes a change from Lancaster...

Me ... you silly-Billy.

Yes, except holidays end ... & I'm catching up.

Didn't read it properly due to work-induced delirium... Apologies!

[thebish]

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I think you've totally wanked up those quote marks - cos I didn't say that!!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lets not fall in to the trap of putting Muamba on a pedalo because of his recent unfortunate illness.

I wondered if Frazier had an exception to his general (and quite welcome) all-round sunny outlook - slightly surprised to find it's Muamba...

I suppose a good way of looking at it is that Coyle unquestionably undervalued Muamba because he's *only* defensive - break-ups, tackles - while his creative abilities (passing, shooting) leave a lot to be desired. Although frequently deployed similarly defensively, Andrews is (ike, say, Holden) undoubtedly more dangerous going forward. In this way, we might accidentally slip some defensive nous into the team under Coyle's radar...