Signings

[BL3]

I read the thread properly. I'd explain it to you, but fear it would be wasted effort.

Allardyce went and signed class players - they were ours, no one elses, so he could plan to build around them, knowing they'd be here more than 3 months. Coyle hasn't - he's borrowed some (and borrowed plenty who weren't class or didn't show much of it whilst they were with us). Can't plan around them as he/we never know if they're going to come back for a second go. So far none have returned as far as I can recall?

Maybe if he added some class at the expense of mediocre volume signings, we might get somewhere.

Alongside that he's signed an abundance of mediocrity - which are our assets.

Clearly you didn't read the thread properly otherwise you wouldn't have been waffling on about how neither Sturridge or Wilshere were part of our squad in the Championship when the OP was referring specifically to the Premier League.

As for Allardyce signing 'class players' players permanently, for every Okocha, there was a Blessing Kaku. The signings improved when the budgets improved. Funny how that works isn't it?

Incidentally we originally signed Djorkaeff on loan. We were able to make the transfer permanent because he was given a free transfer by the German club he was playing for at the time so we just had to find the wages, rather than wages plus transfer fee. Those signings just don't exist any more, Allardyce has said as much himself. Even if they did, we are no longer able or willing to pay massive wages to players with little or no re-sale value.

[BL3]

Yes. The examples of Sturridge and Wilshere were in response to the OP's comments about how Allardyce 'always knew you needed class in the Prem but Coyle seems ignorant of this'. We signed... sorry, 'borrowed', both of those players when we were in the Premier League, so obviously Coyle did know that we needed 'class' when we were in the Prem. Probably helps if you actually read the thread properly.

But did Coyle actually know them to be class when he brought them in or did it just transpire that they were/are? I mean, how would you then explain us 'borrowing' Weiss, Kakuta and Boyata - all of whom were a waste of space?

Seeing as how there were a queue of clubs trying to take both players on loan, i'd say it was common knowledge that they were class. We tried to get both Sturridge and Wilshere back for a second spell, neither Arsenal or Chelsea would loan them back to us because they'd improved so much whilst on loan, that they were now considered part of the first team squads of both those clubs. As for the other examples you've given. You might as well cite some of the flops that Fergie's signed as 'evidence' that he hasn't got a clue.

Where am I suggesting he, or indeed anyone, has or hasn't a clue? I merely asked you for your opinion on something, that's all.

No you're not. You're implying that he got lucky with Wilshere and Sturridge.

[Bruce Rioja]

Yes. The examples of Sturridge and Wilshere were in response to the OP's comments about how Allardyce 'always knew you needed class in the Prem but Coyle seems ignorant of this'. We signed... sorry, 'borrowed', both of those players when we were in the Premier League, so obviously Coyle did know that we needed 'class' when we were in the Prem. Probably helps if you actually read the thread properly.

But did Coyle actually know them to be class when he brought them in or did it just transpire that they were/are? I mean, how would you then explain us 'borrowing' Weiss, Kakuta and Boyata - all of whom were a waste of space?

Seeing as how there were a queue of clubs trying to take both players on loan, i'd say it was common knowledge that they were class. We tried to get both Sturridge and Wilshere back for a second spell, neither Arsenal or Chelsea would loan them back to us because they'd improved so much whilst on loan, that they were now considered part of the first team squads of both those clubs. As for the other examples you've given. You might as well cite some of the flops that Fergie's signed as 'evidence' that he hasn't got a clue.

Where am I suggesting he, or indeed anyone, has or hasn't a clue? I merely asked you for your opinion on something, that's all.

No you're not. You're implying that he got lucky with Wilshere and Sturridge.

No I wasn't, I was asking a you question but, if that's how you want to interpret it then go ahead, fill your boots.

[Jez]

always seemed to me like owens been more concerned about cutting down the wage bill than bringing in big names, which for a club in our position (before and after relegation), was a smart thing to do

Those loan signings were both brilliant and it seems like the only way to bring in class these days without a big fee and/or big wages

[Worthy4England]

I read the thread properly. I'd explain it to you, but fear it would be wasted effort.

Allardyce went and signed class players - they were ours, no one elses, so he could plan to build around them, knowing they'd be here more than 3 months. Coyle hasn't - he's borrowed some (and borrowed plenty who weren't class or didn't show much of it whilst they were with us). Can't plan around them as he/we never know if they're going to come back for a second go. So far none have returned as far as I can recall?

Maybe if he added some class at the expense of mediocre volume signings, we might get somewhere.

Alongside that he's signed an abundance of mediocrity - which are our assets.

Clearly you didn't read the thread properly otherwise you wouldn't have been waffling on about how neither Sturridge or Wilshere were part of our squad in the Championship when the OP was referring specifically to the Premier League.

Coyle has made yet more mediocre signings, Andrews and Mears, to go with the others like Pratley, Ngog and Reo-Coker, who cost us our Premier League place last year.

Coyle is being allowed to build a mediocre Championship side and spend our scarce money on journeymen players.

Clearly on about specifically the Premier League.

There for all to see. How stupid of me.

Glad you sorted that out.

[Relentless09]

I bet our wage bill is higher than when we signed Okocha etc...

However, 2 factors, 1 is 'football inflation' increasing the wages of all players, so equivalent players command more.

The other is that Allardyce tapped into a market that barely exists anymore if at all.

I agree, these type of players aren't available now, they go off to the MLS, Middle East or Asia for one last major pay day. Seen a couple of players that have been released in past years and thought Big Sam would have tried to get them

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Mind you, he's still at it with Guti.

[SmokinFrazier]

The years of extravagant spending by Allardyce and Megson are the reason Coyle has got to cut back on wages and transfer fees.

Aside from that, I'm happy with quite a few of our signings under Coyle. Holden is class, Ream looks like he'll be an excellent player in the future, Wheater has always been good for us, Reo-Coker was a big asset and Eagles can be very good. We have a few players who we need to see more of yet, like Sordell, Mears, Mills, Andrews, Wylde and a couple of others. I can't think of any players who really have let us down. Maybe N'Gog? I don't think he's worth £4m but he works hard and does pose a threat, he just needs more quality. I think he'll develop into a £4m+ player but he can be really frustrating at times.

Coyle isn't bad in the transfer market. It's not like we've signed flop after flop.

[Tombwfc]

I can't think of any players who really have let us down.

It's subjective I suppose. IMO Holden is obviously very good, but I'm not really convinced by any of the others. Some are wildly inconsistent, some don't play, some are just a bit shit.

[BL3]

I read the thread properly. I'd explain it to you, but fear it would be wasted effort.

Allardyce went and signed class players - they were ours, no one elses, so he could plan to build around them, knowing they'd be here more than 3 months. Coyle hasn't - he's borrowed some (and borrowed plenty who weren't class or didn't show much of it whilst they were with us). Can't plan around them as he/we never know if they're going to come back for a second go. So far none have returned as far as I can recall?

Maybe if he added some class at the expense of mediocre volume signings, we might get somewhere.

Alongside that he's signed an abundance of mediocrity - which are our assets.

Clearly you didn't read the thread properly otherwise you wouldn't have been waffling on about how neither Sturridge or Wilshere were part of our squad in the Championship when the OP was referring specifically to the Premier League.

Coyle has made yet more mediocre signings, Andrews and Mears, to go with the others like Pratley, Ngog and Reo-Coker, who cost us our Premier League place last year.

Coyle is being allowed to build a mediocre Championship side and spend our scarce money on journeymen players.

Clearly on about specifically the Premier League.

There for all to see. How stupid of me.

Glad you sorted that out.

That's not the part of the post which we were discussing though is it? I wouldn't mind but i've already re-quoted it. Twice.

Coyle is building a team to win promotion, just like Allardyce did. Which 'class' players did Allardyce sign when we were in the Championship who had any real impact in the Premier League? Ricketts? Frandsen? Most of the 'class' players were added after we won promotion and even then, some of them had no resale value because we signed them towards the end of their careers.

To say that Coyle doesn't understand that we need 'class' in the Premier League is nonsense. Allardyce had the money to bring in the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff and Anelka. Coyle has had to borrow players like Wilshere and Sturridge.

[BL3]

We have a few players who we need to see more of yet, like Sordell, Mears, Mills, Andrews, Wylde and a couple of others.

No, let's just write them off as 'mediocre' before they've even kicked a ball for us. There's some on here who would probably have been rolling their eyes when Allardyce signed Michael Ricketts from Walsall.

[Puskas]

BL3 - I think you may be arguing something of a straw-man, here.

Whilst the original poster may have said that Coyle didn't understand we needed class to play in the Premier League, I would suggest he was indulging in a touch of hyperbole. The real point is whether or not Coyle can recognise class.

It isn't clear to me that he can...

[SmokinFrazier]

BL3 - I think you may be arguing something of a straw-man, here.

Whilst the original poster may have said that Coyle didn't understand we needed class to play in the Premier League, I would suggest he was indulging in a touch of hyperbole. The real point is whether or not Coyle can recognise class.

It isn't clear to me that he can...

I think that's why bringing up Wilshere and Sturridge is relevant. Neither of those two had proven their ability before Coyle brought them to Bolton. It was their stint with us and under Coyle which got everyones attention, but they weren't proven before Coyle had got hold of them. That's an eye for talent, surely?

[BWFC_Insane]

BL3 - I think you may be arguing something of a straw-man, here.

Whilst the original poster may have said that Coyle didn't understand we needed class to play in the Premier League, I would suggest he was indulging in a touch of hyperbole. The real point is whether or not Coyle can recognise class.

It isn't clear to me that he can...

I think that's why bringing up Wilshere and Sturridge is relevant. Neither of those two had proven their ability before Coyle brought them to Bolton. It was their stint with us and under Coyle which got everyones attention, but they weren't proven before Coyle had got hold of them. That's an eye for talent, surely?

He was just after any kids big clubs would throw his way. He only signed Sturridge because his first target, Carlos Vela (yeah.....) turned us down for West Brom.

I'm not sure that shows a good eye for a player......

[Puskas]

BL3 - I think you may be arguing something of a straw-man, here.

Whilst the original poster may have said that Coyle didn't understand we needed class to play in the Premier League, I would suggest he was indulging in a touch of hyperbole. The real point is whether or not Coyle can recognise class.

It isn't clear to me that he can...

I think that's why bringing up Wilshere and Sturridge is relevant. Neither of those two had proven their ability before Coyle brought them to Bolton. It was their stint with us and under Coyle which got everyones attention, but they weren't proven before Coyle had got hold of them. That's an eye for talent, surely?

He was just after any kids big clubs would throw his way. He only signed Sturridge because his first target, Carlos Vela (yeah.....) turned us down for West Brom.

I'm not sure that shows a good eye for a player......

That may be a slightly cynical view. However, it's certainly true that neither Sturridge nor Wilshire were exactly unknown - they'd both been hyped up rather a lot.

Meanwhile, there was Kakuta - watching him at Fulham could have led to a prediction of how he'd do for us, Boyata - not exactly great, and Myachi - the Japanese Stuart Storer.

So he can't really claim unblemished success in the loan market.

[Tombwfc]

Wilshere was heading on loan to Burnley, and there was no partying in the streets what-so-ever when we signed Sturridge. I don't think their quality was anything like proven. Still, overall I don't believe Owen has brought in good enough players with the funds available.

One thing that I do think needs mentioning is that Mills and the nearly 32-year-old Keith Andrews have both signed three-year deals. They aren't just stop-gaps to get us out of the division. Coyle clearly sees them as good enough to play a part in the Premier League. I wonder if we'd have signed both regardless.

[Worthy4England]

I read the thread properly. I'd explain it to you, but fear it would be wasted effort.

Allardyce went and signed class players - they were ours, no one elses, so he could plan to build around them, knowing they'd be here more than 3 months. Coyle hasn't - he's borrowed some (and borrowed plenty who weren't class or didn't show much of it whilst they were with us). Can't plan around them as he/we never know if they're going to come back for a second go. So far none have returned as far as I can recall?

Maybe if he added some class at the expense of mediocre volume signings, we might get somewhere.

Alongside that he's signed an abundance of mediocrity - which are our assets.

Clearly you didn't read the thread properly otherwise you wouldn't have been waffling on about how neither Sturridge or Wilshere were part of our squad in the Championship when the OP was referring specifically to the Premier League.

Coyle has made yet more mediocre signings, Andrews and Mears, to go with the others like Pratley, Ngog and Reo-Coker, who cost us our Premier League place last year.

Coyle is being allowed to build a mediocre Championship side and spend our scarce money on journeymen players.

Clearly on about specifically the Premier League.

There for all to see. How stupid of me.

Glad you sorted that out.

That's not the part of the post which we were discussing though is it? I wouldn't mind but i've already re-quoted it. Twice.

Coyle is building a team to win promotion, just like Allardyce did. Which 'class' players did Allardyce sign when we were in the Championship who had any real impact in the Premier League? Ricketts? Frandsen? Most of the 'class' players were added after we won promotion and even then, some of them had no resale value because we signed them towards the end of their careers.

To say that Coyle doesn't understand that we need 'class' in the Premier League is nonsense. Allardyce had the money to bring in the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff and Anelka. Coyle has had to borrow players like Wilshere and Sturridge.

What are you on about at all? In one post you're sarcastically suggesting I read the thread and in this one you're saying we're talking about a part of a post - maybe it'd be easier if you made your mind up.

The way I see it is that the OP discussed:

1) Coyle made some mediocre signings last season which he's added to with Andrews and Mears (I think he meant Mills but that's by the by)
2) Coyle is building a mediocre Championship side and buying journeymen players
3) What's happened to the scouting set-up that bought decent players
4) Coyle only bought Alonso from overseas (incorrect but that's what the guy said)
5) Sam knew class, Coyle doesn't
6) We'll be a yo-yo team (I assume if this continues)

You responded to point 2) by suggesting we'd have one of the best Championship sides (amongst other things) - whilst three posts (?) later telling me we were talking about the Prem only.

You responded to points 5) and 6) by asking what about Wilshere and Sturridge, to which I pointed out they're not in our squad.

Which bit do you want to discuss?

Coyle is building a team to win promotion, but it's not the same scenario as Allardyce, as he inherited a team that didn't actually require promotion. It was already in the Prem and I think the point that was being made, was that with a limited budget, the players he's brought in don't cut it in the Prem, which is why we lost our Prem status. Last season - one in which we didn't require promotion, he spent £7.5m on strikers. For whatever reason, one didn't get much of a game, the other hardly set the world alight, yet we're told he's had no money.

Allardyce's expenditure on players (both capital for transfer outlay and wages) was generally pretty good by Prem standards as a % of Revenue.

Megson's was nowhere near as good - salaries jumped up to considerable levels in relation to Revenue and he had unprecidented levels of transfer funds.

Coyle is redressing this IMO, rather than anything Allardyce did. But the point still stands, if he'd followed a different line, maybe buying one or two class players (comparitively), rather than lots of mediocre ones then we might not have gone down.

[Worthy4England]

BL3 - I think you may be arguing something of a straw-man, here.

Whilst the original poster may have said that Coyle didn't understand we needed class to play in the Premier League, I would suggest he was indulging in a touch of hyperbole. The real point is whether or not Coyle can recognise class.

It isn't clear to me that he can...

I think that's why bringing up Wilshere and Sturridge is relevant. Neither of those two had proven their ability before Coyle brought them to Bolton. It was their stint with us and under Coyle which got everyones attention, but they weren't proven before Coyle had got hold of them. That's an eye for talent, surely?

Sturridge already had 40-odd prem appearances and 6 prem goals when he joined us, which is why Chelsea snapped him up from City, where he'd been since being 13. Wilshere has been marked out at Arsenal since he was about 2. They already had the attention of two much larger Clubs than ours, so I think it's safe to say they'd already been spotted. All Coyle did was recognise that they weren't getting a game and ask if he could borrow them.

[bw@bw]

The years of extravagant spending by Allardyce and Megson are the reason Coyle has got to cut back on wages and transfer fees.

.

I'm not having that.

Allardyce spent less than £20m in transfer fees in the whole time he was manager - and managed to buy players whose previous transfers had been over £100m (Examples Okocha - cost PSG £11m, free to us, Campo cost Real Madrid £10m - free to us, Diouf cost Liverpool £10m, cost us £4m)

That's not extravagance - that's amazing bargain hunting

[Worthy4England]

The years of extravagant spending by Allardyce and Megson are the reason Coyle has got to cut back on wages and transfer fees.

.

I'm not having that.

Allardyce spent less than £20m in transfer fees in the whole time he was manager - and managed to buy players whose previous transfers had been over £100m (Examples Okocha - cost PSG £11m, free to us, Campo cost Real Madrid £10m - free to us, Diouf cost Liverpool £10m, cost us £4m)

That's not extravagance - that's amazing bargain hunting

Indeed - the "well we paid for it in wages" line doesn't actually add up either when you take it as a % of total Revenue...