General Chit Chat

[William the White]

I have a Unitarian friend who doesn't think it's necessary to believe in God to be a Christian. That is interesting. Even if slightly mental.

[Dujon]

I don't know whether it occurred in Merrie Olde Englande, but down here in Terra Australis the Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists put aside their minor differences many years ago and became the Uniting Church. It was a move with which, at the time, I agreed. I based that opinion on my attendance at services and get-togethers at all three churches (I was raised a Methodist, my father being a lay preacher for that sect.)

As thebish has pointed out it seemed that there were more differences within each church than there were between them. I know that statement doesn't make logical sense - but it does in reality. It always struck me that theological pedantry and internecine maneuvering got in the way of what I thought was the self-imposed primary reason for the existence of each church. Silly me. Then again, I suppose we can all blame Henry VIII and call it quits.

These days I'm agnostic on the subject of religion and so I'm not stirring up a debate on the pros and cons of any of them.

[thebish]

I don't know whether it occurred in Merrie Olde Englande, but down here in Terra Australis the Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists put aside their minor differences many years ago and became the Uniting Church.

yeah... it did! The Congregationalists and Presbyterians (and later the Churches of Christ) got together in 1972 to form the United Reformed Church - which is the denomination I work for.. (that's 5 yrs before the Uniting church in Australia ) The idea was for churches to come together and counter the "splitting" tendencies of the previous centuries... It has happened in Australia - and in India (famously) - and, in fact - all across the world in small ways...

The Methodists have been asked to join in a few times - but have said no! They have very different roots - they are currently in excruciatingly long-term talks to get back in bed with the CofE who they split away from in 1791 - by which time the congs et al. had been going for 130yrs.. (don't hold your breath though!)

[TANGODANCER]

Religion is actually a fascinating subject. Over the years I've read into many historical events involving religious-belief differences, C of E, Catholics, Protestants, Cathars, Jews, Muslims and all the mayhem that was/is Jerusalem. Both Muslims and Jewish factions seem to maneouver their holy book meaning interpretations around to suit situations at times. Even the Vatican seems subject to mind changes at times. At the root of it all isn't really God, but man using religion as a base for greed, power and domination. Despite much study, I've never really got beyond the Ten Commandments as factual and the rest, just man playing at being God.

[thebish]

Despite much study, I've never really got beyond the Ten Commandments as factual and the rest, just man playing at being God.

in what way "factual"??

[TANGODANCER]

Despite much study, I've never really got beyond the Ten Commandments as factual and the rest, just man playing at being God.

in what way "factual"??

Read "making sense". The Bible is factual, despit what we wish to believe or disbelieve about it. It's existed a long time. All depends what your core beliefs are, and those differ as much as there are people on the planet. I'm not here to make a case for what's right and wrong, I'm just interested where religions agree, or don't, and can pursue that privately. I long ago realised that faith and belief have few common denominators amongst mankind.

[thebish]

Despite much study, I've never really got beyond the Ten Commandments as factual and the rest, just man playing at being God.

in what way "factual"??

Read "making sense". The Bible is factual, despit what we wish to believe or disbelieve about it. It's existed a long time. All depends what your core beliefs are, and those differ as much as there are people on the planet. I'm not here to make a case for what's right and wrong, I'm just interested where religions agree, or don't, and can pursue that privately. I long ago realised that faith and belief have few common denominators amongst mankind.

just an odd word to use, is all! does the sermon on the mount not "make sense" in a similar way? just interested why you'd pick out summat from Deuteronomy and dismiss the rest!

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here...

not sure what "the bible is factual" means either - I don't believe that myself... having existed for a long time does not make something "factual" - if it is not "factual" to start with - then passing time does not increase its factualness (factuality?) !

nor have I any idea what "faith and belief have few common denominators amongst mankind" even begins to mean..

sorry!

[TANGODANCER]

mankind.

just an odd word to use, is all! does the sermon on the mount not "make sense" in a similar way? just interested why you'd pick out summat from Deuteronomy and dismiss the rest!

That there is a Bible is a fact, thus factual. Not rocket science. That the Ten Comandments are in it, a fact, factual, ie not made up. Many things make sense, many don't. Please don't ask me to quote the whole Bible, I haven't time.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here...

Are you ever? I wasn't making points at all, just expressing a view

not sure what "the bible is factual" means either - I don't believe that myself... having existed for a long time does not make something "factual" - if it is not "factual" to start with - then passing time does not increase its factualness (factuality?) !

Use whatever word doesn't confuse you then. It's all pretty simple really.

nor have I any idea what "faith and belief have few common denominators amongst mankind" even begins to mean.. sorry! [/quote]

"Few", not none. I don't believe the same things as you, and that's only two of us. Half the planet don't believe is any religion at all. It's not that complicated a statement is it? How you choose to read it is up to you.

Please, no long debate. I've still got a headache from yesterday.

[Bruce Rioja]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

[thebish]

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here...

Are you ever? I wasn't making points at all, just expressing a view

indeed - where did I say different? If you are expressing a view - I'm interested to understand it - as you wrote it just now - none of seems to add up to anything at all - it just looks like words and phrases randomly bolted together and words used to mean something other than what they actually mean...

if you are expressing a view - I am genuinely interested!!

what IS your view? and what is that view about?

the problem with your "factual" word is that you said it was just the ten commandments that are factual

then you defined "factual" as "being in the Bible" - which surely applies to everything else that is in the Bible?

surely you can see that this is dizzyingly confusing at best??

[TANGODANCER]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

Yes. I believe in creation. As I said, I believe in many things and am unsure about many others. The jury's still out on much. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am a Christian; that doesn't mean I approve or don't question the many things that Catholics have done and claimed to be in the name of God. The fact that my beliefs don't always meet agreement from others only strengthens the case that common denominators in belief are few amongst mankind.

[thebish]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

Yes. I believe in creation. As I said, I believe in many things and am unsure about many others. The jury's still out on much. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am a Christian; that doesn't mean I approve or don't question the many things that Catholics have done and claimed to be in the name of God. The fact that my beliefs don't always meet agreement from others only strengthens the case that common denominators in belief are few amongst mankind.

that's fairly clear (thanks!)

but if you only consider the ten commandments to be factual - and the whole of the rest of it to be "man playing God" - then on what is your christianity based?? if the whole of the new testament is "man playing God" - then you've lost the "Christ" out of your Christian...

basing your life/faith on the ten commandments gives you precious little to go on!!

[TANGODANCER]

that's fairly clear (thanks!)

but if you only consider the ten commandments to be factual - and the whole of the rest of it to be "man playing God" - then on what is your christianity based?? if the whole of the new testament is "man playing God" - then you've lost the "Christ" out of your Christian...

basing your life/faith on the ten commandments gives you precious little to go on!!

You could try it to mean that "intepretations" of the Bible are the work of man. Look at the many arguments about Constantine and the King James versions (the work of man ). That if I were just to blindly say "You're all wrong because you don't believe in the things I do" without fully understanding what that is, that wouldn't be outrageous? . I know well what I believe in, I've stated it above, but it doesn't stop me from asking questions .I was more concerned in what you do and in how that might differ. (as per my original question).

[Harry Genshaw]

Having read a bit on Mormonism quite recently I do find it a little scary that the next President may come from that bretheren

[thebish]

that's fairly clear (thanks!)

but if you only consider the ten commandments to be factual - and the whole of the rest of it to be "man playing God" - then on what is your christianity based?? if the whole of the new testament is "man playing God" - then you've lost the "Christ" out of your Christian...

basing your life/faith on the ten commandments gives you precious little to go on!!

You could try it to mean that "intepretations" of the Bible are the work of man. Look at the many arguments about Constantine and the King James versions (the work of man ). That if I were just to blindly say "You're all wrong because you don't believe in the things I do" without fully understanding what that is, that wouldn't be outrageous? . I know well what I believe in, I've stated it above, but it doesn't stop me from asking questions .I was more concerned in what you do and in how that might differ. (as per my original question).

what is it you want to know about what I believe, tango, in particular?

(nobody has tried to stop you asking questions!!!)

also - which bible with the ten commandments in it is not the "work of man"?

[Bruce Rioja]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

Yes. I believe in creation. As I said, I believe in many things and am unsure about many others. The jury's still out on much. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am a Christian; that doesn't mean I approve or don't question the many things that Catholics have done and claimed to be in the name of God. The fact that my beliefs don't always meet agreement from others only strengthens the case that common denominators in belief are few amongst mankind.

Interesting. See, to try and make head or tail of it I'm about to sit the Alpha course. However, I'm pretty sure that I'll never ever believe the Adam and Eve story which strikes me as being not only a load of absolute bollocks but completely impossible as well.

[TANGODANCER]

that's fairly clear (thanks!)

but if you only consider the ten commandments to be factual - and the whole of the rest of it to be "man playing God" - then on what is your christianity based?? if the whole of the new testament is "man playing God" - then you've lost the "Christ" out of your Christian...

basing your life/faith on the ten commandments gives you precious little to go on!!

You could try it to mean that "intepretations" of the Bible are the work of man. Look at the many arguments about Constantine and the King James versions (the work of man ). That if I were just to blindly say "You're all wrong because you don't believe in the things I do" without fully understanding what that is, that wouldn't be outrageous? . I know well what I believe in, I've stated it above, but it doesn't stop me from asking questions .I was more concerned in what you do and in how that might differ. (as per my original question).

what is it you want to know about what I believe, tango, in particular? The basics.

(nobody has tried to stop you asking questions!!!) Where did I say anyone had? Don't understand that comment.

also - which bible with the ten commandments in it is not the "work of man"?

I didn't claim any were.

There are many, many things about religions that confuse even those within them. In Christianity alone, the history of rogue popes, the very foundation of it, and their involvements in duplicity, lies, complying with the state for their own ends, the Crusades, disassembly and putting to death of the Templars, the Turin Shroud (its a fake, eveidence shows. No it isn't because new evidence proves) etc, etc, that need to be studied and not just blindly accepted. I've never been afraid of the words "confused" or "bemused", nor of just admitting I just don't know on many things. I find it a better and more rewarding attitude than pretending to have all the answers.

[TANGODANCER]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

Yes. I believe in creation. As I said, I believe in many things and am unsure about many others. The jury's still out on much. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am a Christian; that doesn't mean I approve or don't question the many things that Catholics have done and claimed to be in the name of God. The fact that my beliefs don't always meet agreement from others only strengthens the case that common denominators in belief are few amongst mankind.

Interesting. See, to try and make head or tail of it I'm about to sit the Alpha course. However, I'm pretty sure that I'll never ever believe the Adam and Eve story which strikes me as being not only a load of absolute bollocks but completely impossible as well.

All I can say is you'll believe what you believe, Bruce. The Old Testament tells us that God made man in his own image and that man was Adam. One of my main reasons for belief in God is a refusal to believe that this wonderful world and all in it just happened because of atoms, or whatever. With God, all things are possible, or so I choose to believe. Unfortunately, I'm nearer to finding out the truth than you.

[thebish]

Tango... "The basics"??

if you want to know what I believe about summat - just ask - I believe all sorts of things about 1001 things to do with church/faith/religion/the world

you are just going to have to be more specific about what it is you want to know!! I will happily tell you - if I know what it is you actually want to know..

[TANGODANCER]

Tango... "The basics"??

if you want to know what I believe about summat - just ask - I believe all sorts of things about 1001 things to do with church/faith/religion/the world

you are just going to have to be more specific about what it is you want to know!! I will happily tell you - if I know what it is you actually want to know..

I'll simplify it. Here is a Catholic prayer upon which our beliefs are based. What don't you believe about it, or have different views on?

The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.