General Chit Chat

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Here's a photograph.
Christ in Limbo, otherwise known as England v Moldovia (at the old Wembley) by Bosch.

[thebish]

I believe your view is driven by an existential fear of the blackness that is death, a wish-fulfillment. mine, tragic though it is for the individual and 'his' place in the world seems to me to be a more 'logical' perspective.

you may - of course be right! But I am comfortable and happy with my delusion! You are welcome to your logical world (Mr Spock!)

That's very kind of you to say so, but you obviously don't think I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be a minister of the church. I too am comfortable and happy with your delusion, I'd much prefer ten of you to ten Brady's inhabiting the planet anyday.

i do think it is possible you are right - else I wouldn't have said it. i don't think it really pays to be too dogmatic in life about anything much... I'm old enough to be able to look back on my life and see how my beliefs and attitudes have grown, changed and moved... they may very well move again...

FWIW - if there emerged "proof" that there is no life after death it would not destroy my christian faith, because (as I tried to say above) life after death isn't the goal/reason/basis for my faith...

it'd be a shame - cos whatever it is it has to be better than week after week supporting bolton - but - I could live with it!

[William the White]

Here's a photograph.
Christ in Limbo, otherwise known as England v Moldovia (at the old Wembley) by Bosch.

You are mistaken.

That is an anteroom to Planet Hoboh.

[TANGODANCER]

Do "mistranslations" not sometimes come across as alternative meanings of the same thing, in which case, who, or which version do we believe?. I watched a biblical/historical programme sometime back in which the female presenter just assumed her "discoveries" could not be questioned, basically, as I saw it, just because she said so. It's all been going on for a long tiem with new "revelations and discoveries" ever popping up to discount previous beliefs. Much of it is one reason why I prefer to be in the "don't know" camp.

All the religeous paintings ever of Jesus show a man no one who knew him ever painted. Our own religion (Catholic) has a whole industry of pictures, medals, statues and musical, light-up souveniers all based on impressionism. The truth of it all is still deep in the fog of fantasy.
Think I'll stick with sketchy basics and the Ten Commandments for now.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I stand corrected (on all counts).

[for TD]
1. You shall have no other team before Bolton.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or statues that are supposed to be Nat Lofthouse, but look nothing like him.
3. You shall not take the name of Coyle in vain, for Coyle will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord conceived of football.
5. Honor your team and the backroom staff.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, Wigan.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor his Tevez, nor his van Persie.”

[thebish]

Do "mistranslations" not sometimes come across as alternative meanings of the same thing,

no - not really. there doesn't really exist a word in English for sheol - because we don't really have the concept.

often people labour under the misapprehension that translation is a static thing... well - it isn't, particularly of ancient languages...

as new sources are unearthed that give concrete examples of the ways that words were used - then translation moves ahead a step. when the King James version was written - there were myriad such discoveries yet to be unearthed..

for instance..

it was only relatively recently that the word translated "Daily Bread" in the Lord's Prayer was discovered in ordinary use outside the pages of the Bible - and it was on a regular shopping list scratched on a bit of slate - which as led us to confirm that Jesus meant literally - "enough bread to last the day"...

the Hebrew word translated "Virgin" in respect of Mary is "almah" - which actually meant "a girl of marriageable age" - in modern hebrew it means "a young and/or unmarried woman"

there was a time when, I guess, you could be fairly sure that "virgin" and "young girl of marriageable age" were tantamount to the same thing - especially in days of yore.. but most scholars would argue that the principle meaning of "almah" is not and never was "virgin"...

[William the White]

Do "mistranslations" not sometimes come across as alternative meanings of the same thing, in which case, who, or which version do we believe?. I watched a biblical/historical programme sometime back in which the female presenter just assumed her "discoveries" could not be questioned, basically, as I saw it, just because she said so. It's all been going on for a long tiem with new "revelations and discoveries" ever popping up to discount previous beliefs. Much of it is one reason why I prefer to be in the "don't know" camp.

All the religeous paintings ever of Jesus show a man no one who knew him ever painted. Our own religion (Catholic) has a whole industry of pictures, medals, statues and musical, light-up souveniers all based on impressionism. The truth of it all is still deep in the fog of fantasy.
Think I'll stick with sketchy basics and the Ten Commandments for now.

Load of idolators, you lot.

[TANGODANCER]

Do "mistranslations" not sometimes come across as alternative meanings of the same thing,

no - not really. there doesn't really exist a word in English for sheol - because we don't really have the concept.

often people labour under the misapprehension that translation is a static thing... well - it isn't, particularly of ancient languages...

as new sources are unearthed that give concrete examples of the ways that words were used - then translation moves ahead a step. when the King James version was written - there were myriad such discoveries yet to be unearthed..

for instance..

it was only relatively recently that the word translated "Daily Bread" in the Lord's Prayer was discovered in ordinary use outside the pages of the Bible - and it was on a regular shopping list scratched on a bit of slate - which as led us to confirm that Jesus meant literally - "enough bread to last the day"...

I've never understood that line from Pater Noster to mean anything else than asking God to provide enough to feed us on that day as it is a daily prayer to most Christians.

the Hebrew word translated "Virgin" in respect of Mary is "almah" - which actually meant "a girl of marriageable age" - in modern hebrew it means "a young and/or unmarried woman"

there was a time when, I guess, you could be fairly sure that "virgin" and "young girl of marriageable age" were tantamount to the same thing - especially in days of yore.. but most scholars would argue that the principle meaning of "almah" is not and never was "virgin"...

Most scholars, but not all, apparently: "Dr. Edersheim, whose "Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" presents a higher order of scholarship than any other "Life" of Christ extant, states:

"The fact that the seventy who were the most eminent Hebrew scholars in the world translated the word 'virgin' is sufficient evidence that in this connection the word could have no other meaning."
This from Ian Paisley's views on the Virgin Birth. Offered as an alternative view, not a universal truth.

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Th ... hrist.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebish]

"The fact that the seventy who were the most eminent Hebrew scholars in the world translated the word 'virgin' is sufficient evidence that in this connection the word could have no other meaning." [/color]
This from Ian Paisley's views on the Virgin Birth. Offered as an alternative view, not a universal truth.

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Th ... hrist.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hmmm.. well - forgive me if I don't take Ian Paisley's view on the matter!!

I didn't say every scholar agreed that the "virgin" translation is a mistake...

an "alternative view" can always be found - but what does that mean? paisley is a crackpot! - no, really he was!! he's an anti-catholic bigot and hardline biblical literalist...

are you offering me his view because you think it has some credibility?

if so - how/why?
if not - then why offer it to me?

whatever next - a recommendation to look at his "Save Ulster from Sodomy" campaign?

[TANGODANCER]

"The fact that the seventy who were the most eminent Hebrew scholars in the world translated the word 'virgin' is sufficient evidence that in this connection the word could have no other meaning." [/color]
This from Ian Paisley's views on the Virgin Birth. Offered as an alternative view, not a universal truth. http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Th ... hrist.html

hmmm.. well - forgive me if I don't take Ian Paisley's view on the matter!!

I didn't say every scholar agreed that the "virgin" translation is a mistake...

an "alternative view" can always be found - but what does that mean? paisley is a crackpot! - no, really he was!! he's an anti-catholic bigot and hardline biblical literalist...

are you offering me his view because you think it has some credibility?

if so - how/why?
if not - then why offer it to me?

whatever next - a recommendation to look at his "Save Ulster from Sodomy" campaign?

Do calm down. I didn't offer you his view. I offered it as the source of the quote above it, re translation of the word "virgin". I said, "This from", meaning the quote about eminent Hebrew scholars was from the link.

[thebish]

Do calm down. I didn't offer you his view. I offered it as the source of the quote above it, re translation of the word "virgin". I said, "This from", meaning the quote about eminent Hebrew scholars was from the link.

whose view is it then that Dr. Edersheim's "Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" presents a higher order of scholarship than any other "Life" of Christ extant??

yours? Paisley's??

[bobo the clown]

fck ... you 2 wouldn't fancy taking this to PM would you ??

[TANGODANCER]

fck ... you 2 wouldn't fancy taking this to PM would you ??

No thanks. I'm done on the topic. Enough's enough.

[Prufrock]

I'm glad you're bickering again. It was really weird a few pages ago when you were both getting along.

[thebish]

fck ... you 2 wouldn't fancy taking this to PM would you ??

bully...

[William the White]

That Tango could take anything whatsoever that Paisley said as supporting his vision of the Christian faith is extraordinary...

For a good load of anti-Catholic vile spleen enjoy this from the world of Ian Paisley...

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here you have it... the religion of 'love'... In practice in the heaven on earth that is the six counties...

Glad to be free of it all myself...

Relieved of it, really, since I carried the burden for the first 14 years of my life, and then was able to escape...

Phew... not going back...

[thebish]

That Tango could take anything whatsoever that Paisley said as supporting his vision of the Christian faith is extraordinary...

For a good load of anti-Catholic vile spleen enjoy this from the world of Ian Paisley...

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

careful - I think that's bullying...

[William the White]

That Tango could take anything whatsoever that Paisley said as supporting his vision of the Christian faith is extraordinary...

For a good load of anti-Catholic vile spleen enjoy this from the world of Ian Paisley...

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

careful - I think that's bullying...

You were obviously hurt by bobo's accusation - an unfair one in my view, since Tango is never intimidated, but always comes back at you - but since you've made reference to it a good few times now, perhaps you could take on board the fact that no one else has supported the clown, and, perhaps, gently. let it go... Perhaps it's fair to suggest to bobo that Tango is not bulliable... I'd say that...

[TANGODANCER]

That Tango could take anything whatsoever that Paisley said as supporting his vision of the Christian faith is extraordinary... Phew... not going back...

Just to clear this up I have to point out that I searched around for views on the Virgin Birth and opinions on the translation of the term. I came up with the Hebrew experts views from that. It just happened to be in the middle of a Paisley article. I paid no heed to his views on life, just the link to the translation bit. Unless he's deliberately lying about that, then it makes a valid argument that some people actually do see the translation as "Virgin". All those Hebrew chaps. Hope that clarifies my position.

[William the White]

That Tango could take anything whatsoever that Paisley said as supporting his vision of the Christian faith is extraordinary... Phew... not going back...

Just to clear this up I have to point out that I searched around for views on the Virgin Birth and opinions on the translation of the term. I came up with the Hebrew experts views from that. It just happened to be in the middle of a Paisley article. I paid no heed to his views on life, just the link to the translation bit. Unless he's deliberately lying about that, then it makes a valid argument that some people actually do see the translation as "Virgin". All those Hebrew chaps. Hope that clarifies my position.

Paisley thinks you are the Antichrist... Wow... Scary... Come on, fight back... Could you not find any Catholic sources about 'amlah'?... Surely both sides are at least equally capable of nonsense?