Have We Helped Matters?

[Mar]

Have we really helped matters or just complicated things by giving Gartside plenty of complaints to deal with. After all when Gartside was first appointed Chairman he didn't have to deal with the current situation that he faces, he was entering into the job with wide eyed enthusiasm (presumably).

But since then most managers have been appointed on the back of what fans wanted.

Allardyce went and we stupidly tried to be ball players under Sammy Lee (I get why we appointed Lee as he was supposed to take off where Allardyce left but he didn't). It's what fans were asking for but waaaay to soon.
Megson was the odd one out who had moderate success but he spent a lot. It was done against the interests of the fans to resolve a problem that Allardyce and Lee left the club in.
Coyle was hired to appease the fans and seemed a good appointment in his first season.

Based on something DSB mentioned regarding the logic of us signing managers.


So without our questioning and want for change would we be in a better situation?

[BWFC_Insane]

The fans haven't driven the hiring and firing of managers. The situations the club has been in have. Results are the factor not fans moaning or not.

And the "myth" that Bolton fans are particularly "hard to please" or "moan more than others, or more quickly" is just that, a myth.

Put our results into West Ham or Sunderland or Blackburn and their fans would be screaming just as much. If not more in some cases.

Heck Villa fans have been doing through their managers since O'Neill.

Its football, or rather modern day football.

[50sQuiff]

Perhaps we've not helped matters. Maybe we've been far too patient with Coyle.

Sam left because he wanted to go on to bigger and better things. Lee was hired as part of the "succession plan" but was fired because he was completely out of his depth. Megson was fired because he was sour and confrontational without bringing success. The sacking was easily justifiable with the trajectory of the club still pointing downwards, despite him keeping us up once. Coyle will be sacked because he is arguably the worst manager of the lot.

I don't think it has anything to do with the fans.

[Lord Kangana]

Its a catch-22 for the club. We're in the country with the richest and most-awash-with-money league in the world. If we don't compete, we die. If we try to compete, we die. So you either roll the dice on spending loads of money, or you try and hope for the best with less.

We've done both, and ended up with the same result. Perhaps we as fans just have to accept that we can't sustain competitiveness at the top table.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Its a catch-22 for the club. We're in the country with the richest and most-awash-with-money league in the world. If we don't compete, we die. If we try to compete, we die. So you either roll the dice on spending loads of money, or you try and hope for the best with less.

We've done both, and ended up with the same result. Perhaps we as fans just have to accept that we can't sustain competitiveness at the top table.

Don't disagree with any of that. I'd only say that I don't care much for the top table and don't care if we are there or not. On my wish list is to have a team that can reach it's potential with the resources at hand. We need a new manager to enable us to reach that potential.

[50sQuiff]

Its a catch-22 for the club. We're in the country with the richest and most-awash-with-money league in the world. If we don't compete, we die. If we try to compete, we die. So you either roll the dice on spending loads of money, or you try and hope for the best with less.

We've done both, and ended up with the same result. Perhaps we as fans just have to accept that we can't sustain competitiveness at the top table.

In priciple I agree. A club like Bolton is effectively treading water in the Prem. It's clearly hard work to keep the plates spinning. But we had the finances, infrastructure and players to keep us in the league. We're still well equiped to make a quick return.

I love how Allardyce shook off the "Little Old Bolton" mentality though. Resigning ourselves to mediocrity isn't going to help our position.

[BWFC_Insane]

Its a catch-22 for the club. We're in the country with the richest and most-awash-with-money league in the world. If we don't compete, we die. If we try to compete, we die. So you either roll the dice on spending loads of money, or you try and hope for the best with less.

We've done both, and ended up with the same result. Perhaps we as fans just have to accept that we can't sustain competitiveness at the top table.

But I think the days of lots of clubs spending fortunes to maintain average mid table positions are gone.

Even Chelsea who spent the most this summer have gone for an array of young stars with promise rather than buying another ready made "Drogba" for 30 odd million.....

Villa are tightening their belts dramatically, with Lambert picking off cheap lower league talent.

Swansea have spent very little, and only started spending in the 5M amounts once they sold Allen and Sinclair for big money.

Everton have been run on essentially no net spend for 10 years onwards.

Arsenal have taken a policy of spending relatively small amounts to maintain a top four position.

We are seeing Liverpool adopt a similar policy.

Spurs are notoriously getting tighter and tighter.

If you are well managed I think you can succeed (and success is relative to your clubs turnover and to an extent its ownership).

The trouble is we haven't been well managed and have wasted money on players who haven't developed. Currently we are saddled with a bench of players costing several million.

How many times when say Allardyce was here would you expect 2/3/4M pound players to sit on the bench long term?

[Lord Kangana]

We substituted good wages for fees under Allardyce. I realise that its seemingly the least popular thing to say in the world to people, but we don't have the money we did anymore. All of the examples you gave above come from a better start point than we.

And that bullshit myth about Everton is still all-pervading I see. We didn't even spend £15m on a player under Megson, even when we were throwing it around like it grew on trees.

[BWFC_Insane]

We substituted good wages for fees under Allardyce. I realise that its seemingly the least unpopular thing to say in the world to people, but we don't have the money we did anymore. All of the examples you gave above come from a better start point than we.

And that bullshit myth about Everton is still all-pervading I see. We didn't even spend £15m on a player under Megson, even when we were throwing it around like it grew on trees.

But they've broadly spent what they've recouped. Ultimately they have sold some players for big fees and have been able to re-invest that. Rooney, Arteta, Lescott, Rodwell......

There have been summers where they've not spent anything.

As a club we've not brought or developed players and made massive profits on them, Everton have. That reflects on how well managed we've been I suspect....

[thebish]

We substituted good wages for fees under Allardyce. I realise that its seemingly the least unpopular thing to say in the world to people, but we don't have the money we did anymore. All of the examples you gave above come from a better start point than we.

And that bullshit myth about Everton is still all-pervading I see. We didn't even spend £15m on a player under Megson, even when we were throwing it around like it grew on trees.

But they've broadly spent what they've recouped. Ultimately they have sold some players for big fees and have been able to re-invest that. Rooney, Arteta, Lescott, Rodwell......

There have been summers where they've not spent anything.

they have spent..

2012/13 £14,000,000
2011/12 £8,000,000
2010/11 £1,500,000
2009/10 £20,000,000
2008/09 £17,500,000
2007/08 £19,250,000
2006/07 £7,000,000
2005/06 £27,600,000
2004/05 £11,250,000


so - rounding it down - I reckon that in the last 9 seasons they have averaged spending on incoming players at £14,000,000 - that's for 9 years - constantly injected into the club's playing staff...

[BWFC_Insane]

We substituted good wages for fees under Allardyce. I realise that its seemingly the least unpopular thing to say in the world to people, but we don't have the money we did anymore. All of the examples you gave above come from a better start point than we.

And that bullshit myth about Everton is still all-pervading I see. We didn't even spend £15m on a player under Megson, even when we were throwing it around like it grew on trees.

But they've broadly spent what they've recouped. Ultimately they have sold some players for big fees and have been able to re-invest that. Rooney, Arteta, Lescott, Rodwell......

There have been summers where they've not spent anything.

they have spent..

2012/13 £14,000,000
2011/12 £8,000,000
2010/11 £1,500,000
2009/10 £20,000,000
2008/09 £17,500,000
2007/08 £19,250,000
2006/07 £7,000,000
2005/06 £27,600,000
2004/05 £11,250,000


so - rounding it down - I reckon that in the last 9 seasons they have averaged spending on incoming players at £14,000,000 - that's for 9 years - constantly injected into the club's playing staff...

Not sure where those figures come from, but fine. but the point is Everton have a long term debt around 45M ththanks not increased and don't to my knowledge have anyone pumping money in, like Eddie Davies has. In fact I thought Kenwright was constantly on the look out for new owners and or investors.

So they have more or less lived within their means.

Whatever they have or haven't spent. They've not run up a massive debt and essentially are spending what they make on fees and any money they manage to save.

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2 ... e-accounts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Their turnover is bigger than ours, so it's natural that they might have spent more.

Doesn't disguise the fact that they have sold players for massive fees allowing them to reinvest. We have not sold nearly as much!

[Lord Kangana]

Which rather substantiates my points. If they are parsimonious, without an outside injection of cash, yet can still have greater spending power than we, how are we supposed to compete?

[Ianmooreslovechild]

[quote="Mar"]Have we really helped matters or just complicated things by giving Gartside plenty of complaints to deal with. After all when Gartside was first appointed Chairman he didn't have to deal with the current situation that he faces, he was entering into the job with wide eyed enthusiasm (presumably).

quote]

Seriously I think letter writers have all the impact of a fart in an empty lift. Gartside can see what is happening. A poisonous atmosphere at the ground and falling gates/bad results/ performances are what get managers sacked.

[BWFC_Insane]

Which rather substantiates my points. If they are parsimonious, without an outside injection of cash, yet can still have greater spending power than we, how are we supposed to compete?

Well they have a bigger turnover than us. Not massively so, but still bigger so you'd expect bigger spending power. I mean if Bish's figures are correct in a couple of those years we will have outspent them.

However, from last accounts our turnover was just above Stokes, well above West Broms, higher than Blackburns and Wigans.

For me going forwards he critical thing will be how well you develop players, how much you can see em for, and most crucially how well you are managed.

Moyes is a perfect example of a manager who has overachieved at times given their resources are dwarfed by Liverpools (over the past few years), Arsenals, Chelsea's, Man Citeh's etc and they have flirted at points with the champions league places.....and over a long period kept Everton as a stable premiership club.

[Hoboh]

Have we really helped matters or just complicated things by giving Gartside plenty of complaints to deal with. After all when Gartside was first appointed Chairman he didn't have to deal with the current situation that he faces, he was entering into the job with wide eyed enthusiasm (presumably).
Not for us to make Gartsides job easy, we just dream of wining the Prem and that does not involve p*ssing about in the chumpionship

But since then most managers have been appointed on the back of what fans wanted.
Not really they haven't
Allardyce went and we stupidly tried to be ball players under Sammy Lee (I get why we appointed Lee as he was supposed to take off where Allardyce left but he didn't). It's what fans were asking for but waaaay to soon.
Lee was foisted on us quite quickly against a tide of uncertanty
Megson was the odd one out who had moderate success but he spent a lot. It was done against the interests of the fans to resolve a problem that Allardyce and Lee left the club in.
Coyle was hired to appease the fans and seemed a good appointment in his first season.
Allardyce did not leave the club "in a mess" thats BWFCI's myth it was the failiure of the next major incumbent of the job to take the club on instead of stagnatingBased on something DSB mentioned regarding the logic of us signing managers.


So without our questioning and want for change would we be in a better situation?
Too true we would if we had a manage with Half a brain and balls and not a fookin' dreamer