Is it time yet?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

O'Leary may well not be right. In fact he's probably wrong. I was just illustrating that he hardly deserves the opprobrium he gets, and certainly his Leeds team were far from dreary.

But now you mention it, you want to ignore the CV and appoint on "feel"? Those better be some f*cking good fingertips, my friend....

Pretty much. Though it has to be a combination of the two.

I refer back to the selection between Allardyce and Roy Evans back in the day. One had the better CV, certainly headlines wise.

But the other presumably was the "better fit and feel" at the time.

And outside of football, when I recruit, I usually find a "feel" is better judge than picking the most impressive CV. Not always. But often.

Also depends how a CV is judged.

I suspect that if you take out of work managers, (and lets pretend he'd come) Benitez has one of the best CV's. Again would you think him to be right for our current situation?

That's one of the reasons I'm not working for you.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

As I suggested, he's got damn good fingertips, has BWFCi.

Despite them being worn to the bone from typing anti-Coylisms...

[Athers]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

[bedwetter2]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

[Dr.Karl]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.

[bedwetter2]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.

Not suggesting it would happen but if Gartside is on the last throw of the dice/under pressure from Uncle Eddie he might recommend an appointment which is out of character for the club.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

I dont think we can afford anything out of character.

[bedwetter2]

I dont think we can afford anything out of character.

Really?? I don't think we can afford anything in character if that character is Coyle or similar.

[Athers]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.

But they can't be plying their trade, they'll have to be out of work!

I suppose Solbakken at Wolves is the sort of thing you're thinking of. I'm all for interesting appointments and not just waiting to see who jumps off the merry-go-round, but it's a job to find someone looking to prove themselves in England, and of course if he takes 10 games to learn a few things we'll be 20 games in and not moving up the league. Gah

[ohjimmyjimmy]

I dont think we can afford anything out of character.

Really?? I don't think we can afford anything in character if that character is Coyle or similar.

Monetary terms.

[Dr.Karl]

As much as I think Gartside has done a fantastic job for us, I do worry that part of the procrastinating over Coyle is that he is truly stumped as to where to turn next.

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.

But they can't be plying their trade, they'll have to be out of work!

I suppose Solbakken at Wolves is the sort of thing you're thinking of. I'm all for interesting appointments and not just waiting to see who jumps off the merry-go-round, but it's a job to find someone looking to prove themselves in England, and of course if he takes 10 games to learn a few things we'll be 20 games in and not moving up the league. Gah

You know what I mean . Yeah there are logistical problems with it all obviously. But I'd much prefer the right long term appointment over someone like McCarthy anyday, so we might not get promoted this time around but we'd have a better shot of staying in the top division when we get there. Short term fixes don't seem to get us anywhere, we've got to learn from Allardyce's reign. A guy that fitted the typical mould of a Bolton manager but was luckily a visionary for us. I'm beginning to think PG struck gold with that one judging by his next few appointments. If he did his due diligence on Coyle for instance then he might of realised he's not up to the job when it comes to sports science/tactics etc. Just basically maximising everything out of the club.

It might be all too late anyway, the best time to look for a new manager I described would have been the Summer. Give some time to bed in his ideas and and create his own team. The situation now is very ugly, we sack him and then get another short term fix in. Its a cycle repeating itself.

[bedwetter2]

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.[/quote]

Unenviable decision, for sure.[/quote]

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.[/quote]

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.[/quote]

But they can't be plying their trade, they'll have to be out of work!

I suppose Solbakken at Wolves is the sort of thing you're thinking of. I'm all for interesting appointments and not just waiting to see who jumps off the merry-go-round, but it's a job to find someone looking to prove themselves in England, and of course if he takes 10 games to learn a few things we'll be 20 games in and not moving up the league. Gah[/quote]

Not sure about can't be plying their trade. Wasn't Coyle when he joined?
For what it's worth, in employment law, there is nothing to stop an unhappy manager at another club to put his details out on the qt that he could be available.

Solbakken wasn't really one I was thinking of - I had never heard of him before his appointment - but it goes to prove the theory that there are managers out there who may well be unknowns to us supporters.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

If it comes to bear it would be the most crucial managerial appointment he would have to make, since his first appointment of Allardyce.

Unenviable decision, for sure.

You see, I don't get this. The list of potentially available managers is probably far wider than any of us could imagine if we were to include non-UK ones. If the board has commissioned a search for a possible replacement, as I suspect, then a research document would throw up all types of candidates categorised by personality type (if you wanted to do that). Certainly important if the club is aware that a driven disciplinarian type is required.

I agree with your sentiment but when has Bolton ever appointed like that? Not always saying a foreign manager is best but we don't ever use that option. There has to be someone plying their trade in a European league that could do a job for us above McCarthy, O'Leary et al. Whether they would want to come to us in the Championship is a another matter. As an established Premierleague club its a different ball game. It always will be a British manager with some sort of connection to the club. Bit depressing really and unprofessional imv.

But they can't be plying their trade, they'll have to be out of work!

I suppose Solbakken at Wolves is the sort of thing you're thinking of. I'm all for interesting appointments and not just waiting to see who jumps off the merry-go-round, but it's a job to find someone looking to prove themselves in England, and of course if he takes 10 games to learn a few things we'll be 20 games in and not moving up the league. Gah

Not sure about can't be plying their trade. Wasn't Coyle when he joined?
For what it's worth, in employment law, there is nothing to stop an unhappy manager at another club to put his details out on the qt that he could be available.

Solbakken wasn't really one I was thinking of - I had never heard of him before his appointment - but it goes to prove the theory that there are managers out there who may well be unknowns to us supporters.

Egil Olsen
Hristo Stoichkov
Claude Anelka

don't wish for what you don't want.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008 ... llmanagers
NB Coyle's not in the list... but then it was written in 2008.

[BWFC_Insane]

Thing that strikes me is that foreign managers, like players are just popular with fans because they haven't followed their careers closely enough to be put off yet....

And like foreign players they are a risk.

It might be great having a "foreign exotic name" that few people have heard of for a while, but what happens when it turns out they are just the Italian/Spanish/German equivalent of Iain Dowie??

What this club needs is someone who is a safe and sensible pair of hands. Somebody who knows what they're doing, and how to get sides out of this division IMO. There may well be a foreign coach out there who would do that. And perhaps even one suitable to build the long term foundations that would be ideal.

Its all risk reward though, and as a premiership side, I might have gone for the higher risk/reward strategy.

Given where we are, I'm not sure taking a bigger gamble is the best strategy when the most crucial thing is the short term goal of going up!

[Athers]

We spent plenty on getting rid of Megson and bringing Coyle in, first the 'transfer fee' for Coyle and then essentially paying for two lots of management staff for a year. We can't afford to do that again!

If we think about the Gartside appointments -

In Allardyce we were appointing the Notts County boss - Would we do that now? Obviously a great move.
Lee - It was a cheap risk but given his coaching experience maybe worth a try, and quickly corrected.
Megson - Kept us up but his tenure is well documented. Stuck with him until the fans made the position untenable.
Coyle - Fans wanted him, fans got him. Managerial career only upwards to the point. At the time it was hard to argue against the move, I don't place much blame on PG for getting him in. Again sticking with him until the fans make it untenable.

All British, all managed in England below us, bar Lee who coached above us. If we go British again I'd hope we were looking for a Paul Lambert type, a progressive youngish manager who can get a team organised & able to pass the ball, and we can get quite cheaply. To do that we're looking at League 1 or unemployed.

For what it's worth I think Coyle has until he next loses a home game, as there will be a "Hull-like event" ...

[boltonboris]

Shame Sean O'Driscoll manages probably the wealthiest club outside of the Premier League..

[BWFC_Insane]

We spent plenty on getting rid of Megson and bringing Coyle in, first the 'transfer fee' for Coyle and then essentially paying for two lots of management staff for a year. We can't afford to do that again!

If we think about the Gartside appointments -

In Allardyce we were appointing the Notts County boss - Would we do that now? Obviously a great move.
Lee - It was a cheap risk but given his coaching experience maybe worth a try, and quickly corrected.
Megson - Kept us up but his tenure is well documented. Stuck with him until the fans made the position untenable.
Coyle - Fans wanted him, fans got him. Managerial career only upwards to the point. At the time it was hard to argue against the move, I don't place much blame on PG for getting him in. Again sticking with him until the fans make it untenable.

All British, all managed in England below us, bar Lee who coached above us. If we go British again I'd hope we were looking for a Paul Lambert type, a progressive youngish manager who can get a team organised & able to pass the ball, and we can get quite cheaply. To do that we're looking at League 1 or unemployed.

For what it's worth I think Coyle has until he next loses a home game, as there will be a "Hull-like event" ...

Yeah all that is fine, but I'd hope a chairman who speaks to managers and/or interviews them before appointing them, has the skill to sense a "feel" (for want of a better word) and not just go on a popular choice, or one which from the outside appears to make sense.

What I'm kind of saying is that Lee who was known very well, was a pretty disastrous decision, and really Gartside should have spotted that before, given the extra insight.

Megson was the right appointment at the time.

The alarm bells about Coyle rang pretty early, but whether Gartside should have picked up on those, I'm less than convinced. I'm not so sure that "we selected him" as "he selected us".

[bedwetter2]

Thing that strikes me is that foreign managers, like players are just popular with fans because they haven't followed their careers closely enough to be put off yet....

And like foreign players they are a risk.

It might be great having a "foreign exotic name" that few people have heard of for a while, but what happens when it turns out they are just the Italian/Spanish/German equivalent of Iain Dowie??

What this club needs is someone who is a safe and sensible pair of hands. Somebody who knows what they're doing, and how to get sides out of this division IMO. There may well be a foreign coach out there who would do that. And perhaps even one suitable to build the long term foundations that would be ideal.

Its all risk reward though, and as a premiership side, I might have gone for the higher risk/reward strategy.

Given where we are, I'm not sure taking a bigger gamble is the best strategy when the most crucial thing is the short term goal of going up!

I certainly was not advocating picking a manager because he is 'exotic'. What I have said all along is that the whole process should be carried out in depth, professionally and getting the best fit - perhaps even including that "feel" you spoke of. You are not going to get the best person for the job by merely "feel" or because they are an ex player or because the club is so feckin parochial in it's appointments. I wouldn't tolerate such lame thinking in business and I have run/managed very sucessful and profitable businesses.

[BWFC_Insane]

Thing that strikes me is that foreign managers, like players are just popular with fans because they haven't followed their careers closely enough to be put off yet....

And like foreign players they are a risk.

It might be great having a "foreign exotic name" that few people have heard of for a while, but what happens when it turns out they are just the Italian/Spanish/German equivalent of Iain Dowie??

What this club needs is someone who is a safe and sensible pair of hands. Somebody who knows what they're doing, and how to get sides out of this division IMO. There may well be a foreign coach out there who would do that. And perhaps even one suitable to build the long term foundations that would be ideal.

Its all risk reward though, and as a premiership side, I might have gone for the higher risk/reward strategy.

Given where we are, I'm not sure taking a bigger gamble is the best strategy when the most crucial thing is the short term goal of going up!

I certainly was not advocating picking a manager because he is 'exotic'. What I have said all along is that the whole process should be carried out in depth, professionally and getting the best fit - perhaps even including that "feel" you spoke of. You are not going to get the best person for the job by merely "feel" or because they are an ex player or because the club is so feckin parochial in it's appointments. I wouldn't tolerate such lame thinking in business and I have run/managed very sucessful and profitable businesses.

No I agree, links to the club are not necessary and overly restrictive.

However, the trouble is that football managers are a relatively limited resource compared to managers in other industries. So its not always "as easy" to get a perfect fit or even a suitable one.

Probably at any one time half the football league and premier league clubs would have plenty of their fanbase asking for a managerial change. Which suggests that finding a "good one" is harder still.

Then the question is what criteria should be used? Best managerial record, biggest name, most popular with the fans, personality etc etc....

Most of the time any appointment is a sacrifice on some of the criteria at least.

Megson for example was probably an ideal appointment, in terms of someone who was no nonsense, pragmatic, tough, determined and single minded to replace Sammy Lee and fix the dithering mess he'd left behind. It worked, just. But he wasn't popular with the fans, didn't have the best record of all available candidates and well, the rest is history.........

My point being that taking away the emotion, Megson probably did a necessary job for a while, and a job we might not have gotten from say O'Leary who had a better record, probably would have had slightly more popularity etc.......

Its not an easy one because history shows us managers can have golden spells when they find the right club, but struggle almost everywhere else, and conversely be great almost everywhere, except one place where for some reason it just didn't work.

On a grander scale I don't think BWFC have a clear mission statement or a clearly defined path to achieving objectives. Something that makes creating an infrastructure to appoint suitable managers and then support them difficult.

When we got Sam the mantra was bring in a manager who could work with little and win at all costs. It was perfect and clear.

Since then I think we've lost that sort of clear top level plan.

Swansea have it, for example, and despite changing managers retain their objective of playing a certain style whilst bringing through young players and remaining more or less self sufficient.

Stoke have it, whereby they are prepared to get results at all costs, and spend money on a side that few outside of Stoke would want to watch, but are happy to be successful in the top flight. If Pulis went, the test would be do they change that plan or find someone to carry it on. We tried to change it with Lee and I feel since then everything has diluted......

[bedwetter2]

Thing that strikes me is that foreign managers, like players are just popular with fans because they haven't followed their careers closely enough to be put off yet....

And like foreign players they are a risk.

It might be great having a "foreign exotic name" that few people have heard of for a while, but what happens when it turns out they are just the Italian/Spanish/German equivalent of Iain Dowie??

What this club needs is someone who is a safe and sensible pair of hands. Somebody who knows what they're doing, and how to get sides out of this division IMO. There may well be a foreign coach out there who would do that. And perhaps even one suitable to build the long term foundations that would be ideal.

Its all risk reward though, and as a premiership side, I might have gone for the higher risk/reward strategy.

Given where we are, I'm not sure taking a bigger gamble is the best strategy when the most crucial thing is the short term goal of going up!

I certainly was not advocating picking a manager because he is 'exotic'. What I have said all along is that the whole process should be carried out in depth, professionally and getting the best fit - perhaps even including that "feel" you spoke of. You are not going to get the best person for the job by merely "feel" or because they are an ex player or because the club is so feckin parochial in it's appointments. I wouldn't tolerate such lame thinking in business and I have run/managed very sucessful and profitable businesses.

No I agree, links to the club are not necessary and overly restrictive.

However, the trouble is that football managers are a relatively limited resource compared to managers in other industries. So its not always "as easy" to get a perfect fit or even a suitable one.

Probably at any one time half the football league and premier league clubs would have plenty of their fanbase asking for a managerial change. Which suggests that finding a "good one" is harder still.

Then the question is what criteria should be used? Best managerial record, biggest name, most popular with the fans, personality etc etc....

Most of the time any appointment is a sacrifice on some of the criteria at least.

Megson for example was probably an ideal appointment, in terms of someone who was no nonsense, pragmatic, tough, determined and single minded to replace Sammy Lee and fix the dithering mess he'd left behind. It worked, just. But he wasn't popular with the fans, didn't have the best record of all available candidates and well, the rest is history.........

My point being that taking away the emotion, Megson probably did a necessary job for a while, and a job we might not have gotten from say O'Leary who had a better record, probably would have had slightly more popularity etc.......

Its not an easy one because history shows us managers can have golden spells when they find the right club, but struggle almost everywhere else, and conversely be great almost everywhere, except one place where for some reason it just didn't work.

On a grander scale I don't think BWFC have a clear mission statement or a clearly defined path to achieving objectives. Something that makes creating an infrastructure to appoint suitable managers and then support them difficult.

When we got Sam the mantra was bring in a manager who could work with little and win at all costs. It was perfect and clear.

Since then I think we've lost that sort of clear top level plan.

Swansea have it, for example, and despite changing managers retain their objective of playing a certain style whilst bringing through young players and remaining more or less self sufficient.

Stoke have it, whereby they are prepared to get results at all costs, and spend money on a side that few outside of Stoke would want to watch, but are happy to be successful in the top flight. If Pulis went, the test would be do they change that plan or find someone to carry it on. We tried to change it with Lee and I feel since then everything has diluted......

Yes, yes I hear what you are saying about the difficulty in finding the right manager within the existing gene pool. Well, extend the search, change the criteria, examine different ways of achieving the required performance. For example, does the manager have to be a hands-on coach? Probably not although he in theory needs UEFA coaching qualifications. Does the head coach have to do anything other than ensure the squad is prepared to the highest possible standards?

Most likely a one off, but Mourinho? No real playing experience but brought through club infrastructures and gained knowledge by association. Obviously a very shrewd guy and definitely somewhat more qualified to be a member of Mensa than any British football club managers I know of.

We won't find a Mourinho out there in the next few weeks but a Bolton management development plan would be a step in the right direction for the future.

A new manager will be a stop-gap for us at the moment. He will either do well and be on the radar of Premiership clubs or will be another failure because of the unscientific way Bolton selects a manager.