The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

Gino Severini's Blue Dancer - gloriously vivacious...

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... Q&dur=4108" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And what I think was my favourite single piece of the entire exhibition - even before Picasso and Braque brilliant works - Russolo's The Solidity of Fog... all the online images I've found make it look more explicit than it is... If you can, fade out the lines of the image on the bottom right to the point that you know they are there, but have to search for them... I did... i loved this work and will research the artist, who i didn't know at all before...

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... BQ&dur=190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As ever, it's probably unwise to comment on the basis of Google images... but I won't let that stop me.

I don't like that Severini at all. For me, it's fussy paintings like that one that really show what geniuses Picasso, Braque, Gris etc were in their lyrical, economical cubism - which is not to say that all three of those men didn't have their flops, because they did.

It's interesting, because I can't recall another cubist representation of dancers... obviously there is Picasso's Three Dancers, but given the era and geographies in which the cubists, surrealists, futurists (and lots of other labels I've forgotten) were painting in, it's perhaps surprising that it isn't a more frequently visited subject.

I'd like to see the Russolo in the flesh.

One person's fussy is another's dynamic... this is a flamenco dancer in performance. The artist is trying to show the shimmer of movement the dance requires - a very Futurist thing. The world is speeding up. the first international bicycle races have just been inaugurated. The car has been invented. Horses are getting scared... and, in terms of social movements workers organisations have sprung up and are getting militant throughout Europe... Anarchist unions in Spain, France and Italy are challenging capitalist society... And, indeed, Mussolini hovers, though they didn't know that in 1912, but plenty of them were prepared to embrace Fascist ideas.

Here's Carlo Carra's The Funeral of the Anarchists Galli... I really like this...

http://raforum.info/spip.php?article893" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yesterday, when i got back, i read the manifesto the futurists of Italy published in 1912 (the 20th century sure was a time of artistic manifestos!). It made me fonder of the paintings.

The Russolo was better though... I just loved it. It is impossible - as far as I can tell - to get an online image of it that corresponds closely to the painting, which is much more enigmatic than this appears, and I like that.

And, for sure, Picasso and Braque were consistently more creative, innovative and daring in every way - no argument from me. And did plenty of duds, as well...

[William the White]

And what I think was my favourite single piece of the entire exhibition - even before Picasso and Braque brilliant works - Russolo's The Solidity of Fog... all the online images I've found make it look more explicit than it is... If you can, fade out the lines of the image on the bottom right to the point that you know they are there, but have to search for them... I did... i loved this work and will research the artist, who i didn't know at all before...

That's almost a very good painting. Excellent use of colour, but why such defined concentric circles in a painting of fog?
Not sure why the distinct light at the top either. I like it.

Electric street lighting has just come to Italian cities! how exciting is that? This is the future, lights will be shone. And, through the fog, what will be found? The light on the steps - if that is what they are - makes me think of waves. Who are the shapes in the distance we can't quite make out? Is that a soldier in the fog? On whose side? who are this group close together?

This was the kind of questioning it had me doing when i saw it.

Perhaps - Italy is lost in fog... light is starting to illuminate it... no one knows what we will find...

[TANGODANCER]

And what I think was my favourite single piece of the entire exhibition - even before Picasso and Braque brilliant works - Russolo's The Solidity of Fog... all the online images I've found make it look more explicit than it is... If you can, fade out the lines of the image on the bottom right to the point that you know they are there, but have to search for them... I did... i loved this work and will research the artist, who i didn't know at all before...

That's almost a very good painting. Excellent use of colour, but why such defined concentric circles in a painting of fog?
Not sure why the distinct light at the top either. I like it.

Electric street lighting has just come to Italian cities! how exciting is that? This is the future, lights will be shone. And, through the fog, what will be found? The light on the steps - if that is what they are - makes me think of waves. Who are the shapes in the distance we can't quite make out? Is that a soldier in the fog? On whose side? who are this group close together?

This was the kind of questioning it had me doing when i saw it.

Perhaps - Italy is lost in fog... light is starting to illuminate it... no one knows what we will find...

I'm in full agreement with most of that without needing to know the answers, but the concentricity still baffles me a little. It somewhat destroys the dense fog efect.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

One person's fussy is another's dynamic... this is a flamenco dancer in performance. The artist is trying to show the shimmer of movement the dance requires - a very Futurist thing.

Yes, as I said, I think it's a promising subject for this kind of painting which made me wonder why I haven't seen more of it from his contemporaries.

I see Braque had a bash with a drawing that for me is also fussy, rather than dynamic.



My guess is that you won't disagree, but I much prefer the great man's Three Dancers:



And, actually, Miro's Ballerina II:

[William the White]

No disagreement from me on the picasso or miro...

Have you seen the Miro Museum in Barcelona? Fantastic.

[bobo the clown]

I see Braque had a bash with a drawing that for me is also fussy, rather than dynamic.

I like Braque. I like this one .... though those old enough will have to admit this is done by a Spirograph !!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

No disagreement from me on the picasso or miro...

Have you seen the Miro Museum in Barcelona? Fantastic.

No, I haven't actually.

Pretty much all the Miros I have seen have been in the Sotheby's and Christie's showrooms.

[William the White]

No disagreement from me on the picasso or miro...

Have you seen the Miro Museum in Barcelona? Fantastic.

No, I haven't actually.

Pretty much all the Miros I have seen have been in the Sotheby's and Christie's showrooms.

That's such a great line!

Might nick it if I get a sitcom with Oxbridge graduates at the centre...

[William the White]

So, bobo, since you told us all Venice made you go 'wow' I've been hoping you'd join in here... What did you get to see there?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Ok, now that Will is back from his own Grand Tour, let's deal wih a few of the issues that article raises.

First up, this one.

Frieze Masters demonstrates the immense energy in today's historical art market. But is this such a marvellous thing? It is surely a temptation for museums and public bodies that own art. A newspaper in Derby recently challenged the city council, which owns paintings by the British genius Joseph Wright of Derby, to sell them off as an alternative to cutting services.

That kind of argument will get louder as the art economy booms and the real economy languishes.

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Time- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find it difficult to comment on this specific case, because I don't know what sort of collection Derby has and I don't know how many people see it at the moment. He was a one trick pony but he was magnificent at it: http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/wri ... rge-t06670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect a lot of the art in municipal collections isn't really the council's to sell and they are restricted by terms of a trust that mean it can only be displayed to the public.

But the principle is interesting - should Derby sell its Joseph Wrights?

No takers?

Ok, I'll try another one on you.

I happen to think that Derby should not sell its Joseph Wrights.

However, I do have another proposal of my own that is likely to be slightly controversial.

I have thought for a while that it is hard to justify the 100% public subsidy that means our major galleries are all free to enter. At a time when there are severe funding pressures on the services and benefits for the poorest in society, it is strange that we still fund entry to these places that are mainly visited by people willing and able to pay for it. To put that more crudely, most of the visitors to the galleries are middle class or tourists.

The major galleries of Spain, Italy and France all charge for entry. Why are we cutting other things but continuing to subsidise middle class recreation?

I'm not suggesting totally excluding those who can't afford to pay - indeed I think it's very important that this doesn't happen. At the Prado in Madrid, for example, there is a window every week during which entry is free. As you might expect, there is a big queue at these times - it doesn't seem unreasonable compromise to me that those wanting to see the great collections for free should have to give up more of their time to do it, subsidised by those who are willing and able to pay at other times.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

No disagreement from me on the picasso or miro...

Have you seen the Miro Museum in Barcelona? Fantastic.

No, I haven't actually.

Pretty much all the Miros I have seen have been in the Sotheby's and Christie's showrooms.

That's such a great line!

Might nick it if I get a sitcom with Oxbridge graduates at the centre...

Ha, you can have that one for free but do keep me in mind if a paid consultancy role comes up.

And I'm telling you - once you realise how it all works, Sotheby's and Christie's are amazing places to go for free entertainment! A top auction night is a great date to take a girl on in London... it's exclusive-feeling and exciting and doesn't cost a penny...

[TANGODANCER]

Something a little contradictory there is there not Mummy? You're saying make people pay to see what you go and study for free in Sotheby,s and Christie's.?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Something a little contradictory there is there not Mummy? You're saying make people pay to see what you go and study for free in Sotheby,s and Christie's.?

They're not paid for out of the public purse.

But yes - if we moved to the Prado model then I would strongly advise those who can't afford to pay to go to view some great stuff in Sotheby's and Christie's!

[bobo the clown]

So, bobo, since you told us all Venice made you go 'wow' I've been hoping you'd join in here... What did you get to see there?

well, I saw plenty ... But would need to remind myself which. I stayed very close to the Guggenheim last time & went in a couple of times, plus a series of others where, in truth, room, after room, after room of huge renaisance art by masters I've heard of & many I've haven't, I'm ashamed to say, became a little draining eventually. Hey, when you've 25 huge Titians, to be honest, you've seen 'em all.

The sheer magnitude, not the clear craft of them, was breathtaking. Plus some would take my eye which others simply walked past and v-versa.

No, however, what I found overwhelming was the architecture ... Individual buildings in themselves and the superb detail in many of them, but also collectively. The beauty all around. The same views in different light gives variety, tho a crisp, clear day, with a dawn or dusk light seems to suit my eye best.

Plus that, though the obvious streets, squares & canals are magnificent the quieter ones behind have great beauty & atmosphere.

Lots of places to simply sit, with a beer or wine &
Watch the World go by. Churches by the bucketload, St. Rocco's in particular sticks in the mind. Out of season & earlier than the day trips allows the St Marks to be viewed at more leisure than normal ... I stood by the great brnze horses and watched the square fill with people, also into/onto the clock tower by St Marks (which Roger Moore's 007 smashed through 30 years ago). Standing on the very top with the 2 bell ringers alongside as they struck 11 was an experience.

Listening to concerts by choirs, by quartets & even one full(ish) orchestra playing Mozart, Vivaldi & Saint-Saens and more in aged Churches.

Great restaurants and simple ones in the most amazing city which can be as chilled or as hectic as you make it.

So it's the place rather than any specific item, view, picture, Church or square. I just love Venice.

(Sorry, but you did ask)

[thebish]

truly great art...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYX7nY_R ... e=youtu.be

[Worthy4England]

Something a little contradictory there is there not Mummy? You're saying make people pay to see what you go and study for free in Sotheby,s and Christie's.?

They're not paid for out of the public purse.

But yes - if we moved to the Prado model then I would strongly advise those who can't afford to pay to go to view some great stuff in Sotheby's and Christie's!

You mean you don't put the odd bid in at the start, just to impress her?

Bum, quoted the wrong post!

[TANGODANCER]

So, bobo, since you told us all Venice made you go 'wow' I've been hoping you'd join in here... What did you get to see there?

well, I saw plenty ... But would need to remind myself which. I stayed very close to the Guggenheim last time & went in a couple of times, plus a series of others where, in truth, room, after room, after room of huge renaisance art by masters I've heard of & many I've haven't, I'm ashamed to say, became a little draining eventually. Hey, when you've 25 huge Titians, to be honest, you've seen 'em all.

The sheer magnitude, not the clear craft of them, was breathtaking. Plus some would take my eye which others simply walked past and v-versa.

No, however, what I found overwhelming was the architecture ... Individual buildings in themselves and the superb detail in many of them, but also collectively. The beauty all around. The same views in different light gives variety, tho a crisp, clear day, with a dawn or dusk light seems to suit my eye best.

Plus that, though the obvious streets, squares & canals are magnificent the quieter ones behind have great beauty & atmosphere.

Lots of places to simply sit, with a beer or wine &
Watch the World go by. Churches by the bucketload, St. Rocco's in particular sticks in the mind. Out of season & earlier than the day trips allows the St Marks to be viewed at more leisure than normal ... I stood by the great brnze horses and watched the square fill with people, also into/onto the clock tower by St Marks (which Roger Moore's 007 smashed through 30 years ago). Standing on the very top with the 2 bell ringers alongside as they struck 11 was an experience.

Listening to concerts by choirs, by quartets & even one full(ish) orchestra playing Mozart, Vivaldi & Saint-Saens and more in aged Churches.

Great restaurants and simple ones in the most amazing city which can be as chilled or as hectic as you make it.

So it's the place rather than any specific item, view, picture, Church or square. I just love Venice.

(Sorry, but you did ask)

Excellent post Bobo. Just add in wandering off the beaten track into bars the tourists don't frequent and listening to local music and you have it all for any place you go.

[William the White]

Plus that, though the obvious streets, squares & canals are magnificent the quieter ones behind have great beauty & atmosphere.

Great post. And so agree with this.

My daughter works with a Venetian woman and she recommended a restaurant in San Polo for 'authentic' Venetian food. It took a little while to find it, through tiny alleys, over bridges, a number of little squares, and all this in the dark. In most places on earth you'd feel a little threatened - often with cause. We didn't for a second. Because all of Venice beyond the 'big sights' is like this, and over and over again, opens up to yet another 'wow' moment.

I also take your point about reaching a moment of 'ok seen all the massive renaissance art I need to...'. Though the discovery of just how brilliant Tintoretto was made the visit special. Before this I only knew his name, not his work. By the end of our four days we were making trips to individual churches just to see his work. Genius. Our next visit will be more relaxed.

Do you rent an apartment when you go? I've done a little research and this looks like it would make sense, esp out of season. Save money on the ruinously expensive restaurants...

[bobo the clown]

Do you rent an apartment when you go? I've done a little research and this looks like it would make sense, esp out of season. Save money on the ruinously expensive restaurants...

Interesting question.

I found a direct book hotel at a vg discount. A 300+yr old old former palace near Ponte Puglia. Like much of Italy, it looked little from the outside but inside was stunning & quirky & charming & overblown & ....

However, when we returned we looked up apartments. More useful once you get to know the city & can visualise where places were. That showed even better value was available & would consider that next time. .... & there will be many 'next times', God willing.

Flights on the discount airlines are cheap and a 30 minute bus journey drops you as close to the city as possible. So it can be done on a budget.

Now THIS would be a lads weekend away for the more discerning types !!

[William the White]

Do you rent an apartment when you go? I've done a little research and this looks like it would make sense, esp out of season. Save money on the ruinously expensive restaurants...

Interesting question.

I found a direct book hotel at a vg discount. A 300+yr old old former palace near Ponte Puglia. Like much of Italy, it looked little from the outside but inside was stunning & quirky & charming & overblown & ....

However, when we returned we looked up apartments. More useful once you get to know the city & can visualise where places were. That showed even better value was available & would consider that next time. .... & there will be many 'next times', God willing.

Flights on the discount airlines are cheap and a 30 minute bus journey drops you as close to the city as possible. So it can be done on a budget.

Now THIS would be a lads weekend away for the more discerning types !!

I think i may already be in this 'discerning' group - four of us, all Wanderers season ticket holders, put £40 a month away (fund administered by my wife) in premium bonds, and once a year go away on a city break and do art and beer... We've been to Madrid, Porto, Amsterdam, Bruges... In a couple of weeks we're off for 6 days in Seville and Cordoba... That said, I don't think there's any way my wife would even countenance going to Venice without her!