The Great Art Debate

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Do you rent an apartment when you go? I've done a little research and this looks like it would make sense, esp out of season. Save money on the ruinously expensive restaurants...

Interesting question.

I found a direct book hotel at a vg discount. A 300+yr old old former palace near Ponte Puglia. Like much of Italy, it looked little from the outside but inside was stunning & quirky & charming & overblown & ....

However, when we returned we looked up apartments. More useful once you get to know the city & can visualise where places were. That showed even better value was available & would consider that next time. .... & there will be many 'next times', God willing.

Flights on the discount airlines are cheap and a 30 minute bus journey drops you as close to the city as possible. So it can be done on a budget.

Now THIS would be a lads weekend away for the more discerning types !!

I think i may already be in this 'discerning' group - four of us, all Wanderers season ticket holders, put £40 a month away (fund administered by my wife) in premium bonds, and once a year go away on a city break and do art and beer... We've been to Madrid, Porto, Amsterdam, Bruges... In a couple of weeks we're off for 6 days in Seville and Cordoba... That said, I don't think there's any way my wife would even countenance going to Venice without her!

Can't go to Venice without your wife, but she let's you go to Amsterdam without her

[William the White]

Do you rent an apartment when you go? I've done a little research and this looks like it would make sense, esp out of season. Save money on the ruinously expensive restaurants...

Interesting question.

I found a direct book hotel at a vg discount. A 300+yr old old former palace near Ponte Puglia. Like much of Italy, it looked little from the outside but inside was stunning & quirky & charming & overblown & ....

However, when we returned we looked up apartments. More useful once you get to know the city & can visualise where places were. That showed even better value was available & would consider that next time. .... & there will be many 'next times', God willing.

Flights on the discount airlines are cheap and a 30 minute bus journey drops you as close to the city as possible. So it can be done on a budget.

Now THIS would be a lads weekend away for the more discerning types !!

I think i may already be in this 'discerning' group - four of us, all Wanderers season ticket holders, put £40 a month away (fund administered by my wife) in premium bonds, and once a year go away on a city break and do art and beer... We've been to Madrid, Porto, Amsterdam, Bruges... In a couple of weeks we're off for 6 days in Seville and Cordoba... That said, I don't think there's any way my wife would even countenance going to Venice without her!

Can't go to Venice without your wife, but she let's you go to Amsterdam without her

She had nothing to fear from Vermeer...

[thebish]

Now THIS would be a lads weekend away for the more discerning types !!

I think i may already be in this 'discerning' group - four of us, all Wanderers season ticket holders, put £40 a month away (fund administered by my wife) in premium bonds, and once a year go away on a city break and do art and beer... We've been to Madrid, Porto, Amsterdam, Bruges... In a couple of weeks we're off for 6 days in Seville and Cordoba... That said, I don't think there's any way my wife would even countenance going to Venice without her!

the discerning four could be the discerning five, Bobo... get in there!!

[William the White]

Ok, now that Will is back from his own Grand Tour, let's deal wih a few of the issues that article raises.

First up, this one.

Frieze Masters demonstrates the immense energy in today's historical art market. But is this such a marvellous thing? It is surely a temptation for museums and public bodies that own art. A newspaper in Derby recently challenged the city council, which owns paintings by the British genius Joseph Wright of Derby, to sell them off as an alternative to cutting services.

That kind of argument will get louder as the art economy booms and the real economy languishes.

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Time- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find it difficult to comment on this specific case, because I don't know what sort of collection Derby has and I don't know how many people see it at the moment. He was a one trick pony but he was magnificent at it: http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/wri ... rge-t06670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect a lot of the art in municipal collections isn't really the council's to sell and they are restricted by terms of a trust that mean it can only be displayed to the public.

But the principle is interesting - should Derby sell its Joseph Wrights?

No takers?

Ok, I'll try another one on you.

I happen to think that Derby should not sell its Joseph Wrights.

However, I do have another proposal of my own that is likely to be slightly controversial.

I have thought for a while that it is hard to justify the 100% public subsidy that means our major galleries are all free to enter. At a time when there are severe funding pressures on the services and benefits for the poorest in society, it is strange that we still fund entry to these places that are mainly visited by people willing and able to pay for it. To put that more crudely, most of the visitors to the galleries are middle class or tourists.

The major galleries of Spain, Italy and France all charge for entry. Why are we cutting other things but continuing to subsidise middle class recreation?

I'm not suggesting totally excluding those who can't afford to pay - indeed I think it's very important that this doesn't happen. At the Prado in Madrid, for example, there is a window every week during which entry is free. As you might expect, there is a big queue at these times - it doesn't seem unreasonable compromise to me that those wanting to see the great collections for free should have to give up more of their time to do it, subsidised by those who are willing and able to pay at other times.

I think it might be possible to countenance this - but not universally. We do know that gallery/museum visiting numbers shrank significantly with even (comparatively) modest charges levied. But you are right - the great galleries of the world all charge (though Venice more than any I know! i went expecting to cough up, but not so astronomically). If I remember correctly the Prado is free on Sundays and some national holidays.

but:

Only the London galleries are the equivalent of the Prado, Louvre, Gulbenkian, Accademia etc.

I doubt that Derby would make much money by charging, neither would Bolton or any number of small galleries, and charging would seriously affect visitor njmbers... And once a painting has been sold it has been sold for this generation, the next, the one after. Bury, I think, disposed of a Lowry for something like £100k. Was that worth doing?

But, in London, I suppose, it could make a reasonable amount of money. Is it possible to make that discrimination?

And safeguards such as the ones you suggest could soften the blow. I'd add onto that free entrance for under 19s, students, possibly seniors, the people that might not have the money but still, reasonably, want to go. I was thrilled to see a party of primary school kids at the National Portrait Gallery last time I went.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I think it might be possible to countenance this - but not universally. We do know that gallery/museum visiting numbers shrank significantly with even (comparatively) modest charges levied. But you are right - the great galleries of the world all charge (though Venice more than any I know! i went expecting to cough up, but not so astronomically). If I remember correctly the Prado is free on Sundays and some national holidays.

but:

Only the London galleries are the equivalent of the Prado, Louvre, Gulbenkian, Accademia etc.

I doubt that Derby would make much money by charging, neither would Bolton or any number of small galleries, and charging would seriously affect visitor njmbers... And once a painting has been sold it has been sold for this generation, the next, the one after. Bury, I think, disposed of a Lowry for something like £100k. Was that worth doing?

But, in London, I suppose, it could make a reasonable amount of money. Is it possible to make that discrimination?

And safeguards such as the ones you suggest could soften the blow. I'd add onto that free entrance for under 19s, students, possibly seniors, the people that might not have the money but still, reasonably, want to go. I was thrilled to see a party of primary school kids at the National Portrait Gallery last time I went.

Yes, I was only really thinking of the London galleries. That discrimination is possible - some regions charging and some not. What is clearly not allowed in EU law is charging other Europeans in a gallery, whilst at the same time allowing Brits in free.

It's an interesting question though - wherever we're discussing, if charging even a nominal fee 'seriously affects visitor numbers', then what exactly is it that we're paying for if the masses put so little value on these 'facilities'? A big question - what is the 'value', 'use' or 'point' of publicly accessible art. To put in economists' terms - to what extent is art a 'merit good' that will be under-consumed if it is left to market forces without the state stepping in?

I hadn't heard of the Lowry sold by Bury Council. I personally think it would be a great shame for cities and towns to sell off their treasures, especially when they speak to the history of the place like Lowry or Joseph Wright paintings. However, I do wonder how important 'ownership' is if some level of access were retained. So, I think I could be persuaded that if the Wrights were sold to an American collector/institution on the condition that they were exhibited to the public in Derby 3 weeks out of every year in perpetuity then that could be acceptable (subject to the conservation concerns that might raise). Who knows, that kind of arrangement might even make viewing these works more of a noteworthy event.

[William the White]

A really, really strong recommendation for the current exhibition at the City Art Gallery in Manchester.

Called The First Cut it's the work of 31 international artists whose medium is paper. and it is extraordinary.

They've taken this most common material, by its very nature fragile, transitional, and used it to produce work of real imagination, clarity and power. It ranges from work akin to Victorian silhouettes tp abstracts, installations, massive work covering an entire wall, and tiny, sweet miniatures. It is, in turns, decorative, beautiful, political, questioning, figurative and abstract (though nothing so abstract that it would arouse the ire of Tango, bobo or the lost leopard. In fact, i think all three would really enjoy.

My wife had to (almost) drag me along - it didn't seem likely to be my thing. Not for the first time, she was right, I wasn't - I should know better to trust the imagination and exquisite craft of artists. It's really fine.

Runs until Jan 27. I'll be going again.

[Bruce Rioja]

City Art Gallery, Will? Never heard of it. Where is it?

[William the White]

City Art Gallery, Will? Never heard of it. Where is it?

It's now called Manchester Art Gallery, it's on Mosley St, bang in the centre, near the Library.

http://www.manchestergalleries.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really reccommend, Bruce...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I went to an exhibition of Spanish drawings and prints at the British Museum today in my lunch break.

I'm sure you would enjoy, Will - especially the Goya stuff. It's free and well worth an hour of your time if you find yourself down here in the coming months.

I don't have a lot to add to this review by Sewell: http://www.standard.co.uk/arts/visual-a ... 26309.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

This is a brilliant article on contemporary art and the identity crisis it is suffering.

It's a bit long and meandering but the commentary is compelling.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/4683/full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[William the White]

I went to an exhibition of Spanish drawings and prints at the British Museum today in my lunch break.

I'm sure you would enjoy, Will - especially the Goya stuff. It's free and well worth an hour of your time if you find yourself down here in the coming months.

I don't have a lot to add to this review by Sewell: http://www.standard.co.uk/arts/visual-a ... 26309.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That looks excellent. About three years ago - I think - early in the history of this thread I reported on visiting an exhibition of Goya drawings collected as 'The Horrors of War' and shown in Manchester Art Gallery. Was very good. Visiting Sevilla and Cordoba at the end of next week so will get to see a goodly number of Murillo and Zurbaran. But the biggest kick will be the Moorish architecture.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

This is a brilliant article on contemporary art and the identity crisis it is suffering.

It's a bit long and meandering but the commentary is compelling.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/4683/full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this article it quotes about the Tracy Emin retrospective last year is amusing: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/im-sick- ... nt-get-art" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TANGODANCER]

And this article in quotes about the Tracy Emin retrospective last year is amusing: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/im-sick- ... nt-get-art" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hallelujah. Tracy rides again.

[William the White]

In Timon of Athens there is a female painter (at least in the national Theatre production) wo is a venal, money-obsessed, ego maniac. In this production the actress clearly based her performance on Emin, hairstyle, accent etc. Made us laugh.

Which, tbh, is more than the article did.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Which, tbh, is more than the article did.

I'm sorry but this did make me laugh:

"Are you fecking kidding me? Just in case you can't tell from the picture, this is a photo of Tracey rubbing money against her vagina. Which people are going to pay money to look at. That's like a Zoolander joke that the writers rejected for being "a bit transparent"."

[boltonboris]

I don't think she's an artist. I think she's a con-woman who presented some dick with a shit piece paper with a splash of her 'snail trail' on it and said it was Art.. That bloke probably went "oooh, that's great and edgy, yeah I said 'edgy', because I'm cool" and Tracey has been taking the piss out of them with meaningless shite ever since.

Good on her.

[bobo the clown]

"... this is a photo of Tracey rubbing money against her vagina. Which people are going to pay money to look at. That's like a Zoolander joke that the writers rejected for being "a bit transparent"."

I guess it would be a bit transparent after she'd wiped her clutterbucket with it !

[William the White]

I don't think she's an artist. I think she's a con-woman who presented some dick with a shit piece paper with a splash of her 'snail trail' on it and said it was Art.. That bloke probably went "oooh, that's great and edgy, yeah I said 'edgy', because I'm cool" and Tracey has been taking the piss out of them with meaningless shite ever since.

Good on her.

I think it's a photo in a frame.

[William the White]

Saturday afternoon scheduled for Museu de Bellas Artes in Sevilla. A new one on me. Strong collection of 17th Century Sevillian Art - especially Murillo, Zurbaran and Valdes Leal.

Next Wednesday afternoon for the Picasso Birthplace Museum, Malaga. Visited this 18 moths ago, but looking forward to a second.

In between - Cordoba, whose old town is a work of art in itself.

[bobo the clown]

Saturday afternoon scheduled for Museu de Bellas Artes in Sevilla. A new one on me. Strong collection of 17th Century Sevillian Art - especially Murillo, Zurbaran and Valdes Leal.

Next Wednesday afternoon for the Picasso Birthplace Museum, Malaga. Visited this 18 moths ago, but looking forward to a second.

In between - Cordoba, whose old town is a work of art in itself.

Get a job !!