Bogdan

[jaffka]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

[Lost Leopard Spot]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

I understand the importance of the fact he saved it, insofar as it is better that he did than that he didn't, but, however, the manner of his saving it was less than dignified, and catching a ball with your face (or your willy as another example) could be construed as a lucky rather than a skilled interception, and thus renders him open to the accusation he isn't a top notch goalkeeper.

[jaffka]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

I understand the importance of the fact he saved it, insofar as it is better that he did than that he didn't, but, however, the manner of his saving it was less than dignified, and catching a ball with your face (or your willy as another example) could be construed as a lucky rather than a skilled interception, and thus renders him open to the accusation he isn't a top notch goalkeeper.

So what you are saying then is that Bogdan should have just used his hands despite the distance and speed that the ball came towards him when Marshall kicked the ball.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

I understand the importance of the fact he saved it, insofar as it is better that he did than that he didn't, but, however, the manner of his saving it was less than dignified, and catching a ball with your face (or your willy as another example) could be construed as a lucky rather than a skilled interception, and thus renders him open to the accusation he isn't a top notch goalkeeper.

So what you are saying then is that Bogdan should have just used his hands despite the distance and speed that the ball came towards him when Marshall kicked the ball.

No. What I'm saying is slightly different to that: a top class goalkeeper would have had his hands rising and probably in front of his face, whereas more mediocre keepers would not have had time to react. In my opinion this places Boggers in the mediocre category of goalkeeping.

[jaffka]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

I understand the importance of the fact he saved it, insofar as it is better that he did than that he didn't, but, however, the manner of his saving it was less than dignified, and catching a ball with your face (or your willy as another example) could be construed as a lucky rather than a skilled interception, and thus renders him open to the accusation he isn't a top notch goalkeeper.

So what you are saying then is that Bogdan should have just used his hands despite the distance and speed that the ball came towards him when Marshall kicked the ball.

No. What I'm saying is slightly different to that: a top class goalkeeper would have had his hands rising and probably in front of his face, whereas more mediocre keepers would not have had time to react. In my opinion this places Boggers in the mediocre category of goalkeeping.

Have you ever played football?

When I was being coached, quite a long time ago I was told to put my body on the line and get anything in the way.

If you really want to argue that Bogdan is sh*t then I think that you should be using far more obvious concedes rather than what was a very good save.

[truewhite15]

C'mon, He saved it with his face....

does it matter how he saved it

the important thing is that he did save it

I understand the importance of the fact he saved it, insofar as it is better that he did than that he didn't, but, however, the manner of his saving it was less than dignified, and catching a ball with your face (or your willy as another example) could be construed as a lucky rather than a skilled interception, and thus renders him open to the accusation he isn't a top notch goalkeeper.

So what you are saying then is that Bogdan should have just used his hands despite the distance and speed that the ball came towards him when Marshall kicked the ball.

No. What I'm saying is slightly different to that: a top class goalkeeper would have had his hands rising and probably in front of his face, whereas more mediocre keepers would not have had time to react. In my opinion this places Boggers in the mediocre category of goalkeeping.

Sorry mate, you usually post sense, but that's bullshit. At that sort of range, the only thing a goalkeeper can do is spread himself as wide as possible and hope you get something, be it nose, arse, hand, bollocks, in the way. Take a look at it again. Marshall was less than a meter away when he hit it, and it was travelling at a fair rate of knots. Had it been Jussi in goal, he'd have been on his knees, and it would have soared over his head and into the back of the net. Bogdan spread himself out wide, he stood up strong. That's the best thing you can do in that position, as at that range, you're not reacting to the shot so much as getting in the way of it, so it makes sense to have as much of yourself in as many places as possible.

React to the very poor punch as much as you want. Yes, he's been poor recently (though last season shows his potential, for me), but don't use something he did well as a stick to beat him with.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

If you really want to argue that Bogdan is sh*t then I think that you should be using far more obvious concedes rather than what was a very good save.

Did I say he was shit? Did I?
I think, very clearly, I stated that I didn't think he was a top class goalkeeper - few goalkeepers are. Goalkeeping is almost unique in football insofar as there is a level of goalkeeping that goes beyond being athletic, being able to 'play', being tactically aware - all of which can be taught, and/or be coached, and/or be improved by training regimes - and that is the pure instinctive movements that goalkeepers come out with when doing first class saves. My contention is that saving it with his face demonstrates that he does not have that higher quality, that instinctive bodily awareness.

(As for your other points there are no arguments with me. No, I have not played football beyond primary school level. Yes he saved it, and an important save it was. Yes, I understand the concept of saving it no matter how that's achieved.)

[truewhite15]

If you really want to argue that Bogdan is sh*t then I think that you should be using far more obvious concedes rather than what was a very good save.

Did I say he was shit? Did I?
I think, very clearly, I stated that I didn't think he was a top class goalkeeper - few goalkeepers are. Goalkeeping is almost unique in football insofar as there is a level of goalkeeping that goes beyond being athletic, being able to 'play', being tactically aware - all of which can be taught, and/or be coached, and/or be improved by training regimes - and that is the pure instinctive movements that goalkeepers come out with when doing first class saves. My contention is that saving it with his face demonstrates that he does not have that higher quality, that instinctive bodily awareness.

(As for your other points there are no arguments with me. No, I have not played football beyond primary school level. Yes he saved it, and an important save it was. Yes, I understand the concept of saving it no matter how that's achieved.)

But his performances last season indicate that he does have that instinct. His confidence has been shot this season, with good reason, and he hasn't been performing to his best. But that WAS a good save. He did everything right, he did everything by the book, and it doesn't make sense for you to pick up on the fact that he didn't save it with his hands when the shot came from less than a meter away. Poor goalkeepers would have been in the wrong position - too low, or not wide enough, so the ball could have flown past them anywhere. Bogdan, in that instance, made sure that he was covering all the bases.

[jaffka]

If you really want to argue that Bogdan is sh*t then I think that you should be using far more obvious concedes rather than what was a very good save.

Did I say he was shit? Did I?
I think, very clearly, I stated that I didn't think he was a top class goalkeeper - few goalkeepers are. Goalkeeping is almost unique in football insofar as there is a level of goalkeeping that goes beyond being athletic, being able to 'play', being tactically aware - all of which can be taught, and/or be coached, and/or be improved by training regimes - and that is the pure instinctive movements that goalkeepers come out with when doing first class saves. My contention is that saving it with his face demonstrates that he does not have that higher quality, that instinctive bodily awareness.

(As for your other points there are no arguments with me. No, I have not played football beyond primary school level. Yes he saved it, and an important save it was. Yes, I understand the concept of saving it no matter how that's achieved.)

It would appear that we are saying very close to the same thing then, being that he is not a top notch keeper, ie in the Joe Hart class but if he was it would be very unlikely he would be at Bolton.

However your first paragraph and last paragraph contradict each other. A save is a save regardless of how pretty it looks on the action replay.

[thebish]

My contention is that saving it with his face demonstrates that he does not have that higher quality, that instinctive bodily awareness.

and this is the heart of the argument..

either

1) he absolutely DID have the instinctive bodily awareness to do the right thing - stand up and make himself big - and bravely block the shot... (with his face - as it turned out)

or

2) he just accidentally got in the way...


putting his hands in front of his face (even instinctively) would have made him (as a target) smaller - and might only have signified an instinct for self-preservation rather than an instinct for top-goalydom!

I, for one, am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one - and go with 1)

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Sorry mate, you usually post sense, but that's bullshit. At that sort of range, the only thing a goalkeeper can do is spread himself as wide as possible and hope you get something, be it nose, arse, hand, bollocks, in the way. Take a look at it again. Marshall was less than a meter away when he hit it, and it was travelling at a fair rate of knots. Had it been Jussi in goal, he'd have been on his knees, and it would have soared over his head and into the back of the net. Bogdan spread himself out wide, he stood up strong. That's the best thing you can do in that position, as at that range, you're not reacting to the shot so much as getting in the way of it, so it makes sense to have as much of yourself in as many places as possible.

React to the very poor punch as much as you want. Yes, he's been poor recently (though last season shows his potential, for me), but don't use something he did well as a stick to beat him with.

I think the argument here might be one of my own making, and it looks like I'm losing it. To try and rescue what I believe to be a 'correct' argument I shall attempt to outline further what I mean.

Boggers can keep goal. He can save stuff. He is athletic and has the ability to play in this division and potentially the Prem. I, like others, think his tactical awarness needs some work. he makes me nervous when he dithers. He can't seem to make his mind up as to what to do with crosses, and eight times out of ten seems to pick the wrong choice. I think with a good goalkeeping coach that diffidence with decision making can be improved and he can become a bloody good goalkeeper. Now, for the 'argument' bit: what I don't see him becoming, and what I don't think he can achieve (because it is not teachable, you either have it or you don't) is Greatness. This cannot be demonstrated because it is subjective, but, the fact he stopped the shot with his face nad his hands were nowhere near on the rise, shows to me that he doesn't have the natural instinct that would ever allow him to be classed as a Legend.

[truewhite15]

Sorry mate, you usually post sense, but that's bullshit. At that sort of range, the only thing a goalkeeper can do is spread himself as wide as possible and hope you get something, be it nose, arse, hand, bollocks, in the way. Take a look at it again. Marshall was less than a meter away when he hit it, and it was travelling at a fair rate of knots. Had it been Jussi in goal, he'd have been on his knees, and it would have soared over his head and into the back of the net. Bogdan spread himself out wide, he stood up strong. That's the best thing you can do in that position, as at that range, you're not reacting to the shot so much as getting in the way of it, so it makes sense to have as much of yourself in as many places as possible.

React to the very poor punch as much as you want. Yes, he's been poor recently (though last season shows his potential, for me), but don't use something he did well as a stick to beat him with.

I think the argument here might be one of my own making, and it looks like I'm losing it. To try and rescue what I believe to be a 'correct' argument I shall attempt to outline further what I mean.

Boggers can keep goal. He can save stuff. He is athletic and has the ability to play in this division and potentially the Prem. I, like others, think his tactical awarness needs some work. he makes me nervous when he dithers. He can't seem to make his mind up as to what to do with crosses, and eight times out of ten seems to pick the wrong choice. I think with a good goalkeeping coach that diffidence with decision making can be improved and he can become a bloody good goalkeeper. Now, for the 'argument' bit: what I don't see him becoming, and what I don't think he can achieve (because it is not teachable, you either have it or you don't) is Greatness. This cannot be demonstrated because it is subjective, but, the fact he stopped the shot with his face nad his hands were nowhere near on the rise, shows to me that he doesn't have the natural instinct that would ever allow him to be classed as a Legend.

But as the Bish says, to throw his hands up towards his face would have made him smaller, and if he gets it wrong, the ball flies into the net anyway. The best goalkeepers couldn't care less which part of their anatomy keeps the ball out, as long as it stays out. I think you're picking on something that doesn't exist here, mate.

[thebish]

but, the fact he stopped the shot with his face nad his hands were nowhere near on the rise, shows to me that he doesn't have the natural instinct that would ever allow him to be classed as a Legend.

unless..... the actual best way to deal with that shot (instinctively) is to simply make yourself as big an obstacle as you can - and that would not be by putting your hands in front of your face... NO GOALKEEPER - not even the greatest - would have caught that and then bowled it calmly out to the left back... so - it would have made no difference to have bounced off his face or his hands... his hands were better off covering space where the ball might have gone that wasn't already covered by his face....

[Lord Kangana]

Boggers can keep goal

Thats very generous of you, but I don't think its yours to give away.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

My contention is that saving it with his face demonstrates that he does not have that higher quality, that instinctive bodily awareness.

and this is the heart of the argument..

either

1) he absolutely DID have the instinctive bodily awareness to do the right thing - stand up and make himself big - and bravely block the shot... (with his face - as it turned out)

or

2) he just accidentally got in the way...


putting his hands in front of his face (even instinctively) would have made him (as a target) smaller - and might only have signified an instinct for self-preservation rather than an instinct for top-goalydom!

I, for one, am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one - and go with 1)

And don't want to repeat ad infinitum what I've said in previous posts, but:
I don't think what he did was either 1 or 2 I think it was 3

3) he didn't accidentally get in the way, he made a good save because he was tactically aware of the need to spread himself. It wasn't 'instinctive' it was a trained response. If it was truly instinctive and absolutely top class he would have saved it with his hands even despite the fact it was blasted at him from a yard away.

[jaffka]

but, the fact he stopped the shot with his face nad his hands were nowhere near on the rise, shows to me that he doesn't have the natural instinct that would ever allow him to be classed as a Legend.

unless..... the actual best way to deal with that shot (instinctively) is to simply make yourself as big an obstacle as you can - and that would not be by putting your hands in front of your face... NO GOALKEEPER - not even the greatest - would have caught that and then bowled it calmly out to the left back... so - it would have made no difference to have bounced off his face or his hands... his hands were better off covering space where the ball might have gone that wasn't already covered by his face....

He might have...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4SJv61i6Bo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

watch from 1.40

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Bloody hell that was fast and furious... I don't feel I've done justice to my argument, especially with three/four of you shooting balls at me. So I'll conceed the point he made a very good save... I shall bow to your majority opinion on the face save. (But he's still bad at decision making... which he can improve on with proper coaching).

((And privately I'm whispering to myself that Merlinho would not only have stopped it with his hands but caught it too))

[wanderers_on_tour]

Surely Peter Schmeichel proved its not HOW you save it that counts but the fact that HE did save it, and save us all three points in the process?? Schmeichel won old red nose the treble by getting is legs between the ball and the net on numerous occassions.

[Athers]

Personal preference but I don't really like aggressive competition for the goalkeeper position. Have seen a good interview with Matt Murray where he said one thing which made him feel confident was that his manager had complete faith in him and he was his number 1.

How bad is it when a keeper makes a mistake and then the cameras zoom in on his competition sat on the bench - those thoughts will be what the goalkeeper himself will be thinking whenever the ball's being swung in.

I'm no goalkeeper but the position's all in the head I reckon - they more than anyone need looking after mentally. Different things might work for different people but you can hardly say Jussi for example thrived under the oncoming pressure of Bogdan.

[thebish]

((And privately I'm whispering to myself that Merlinho would not only have stopped it with his hands but caught it too))