Dougie Freedman - New Manager

[Hoboh]

What is your problem, Hoboh? It's Megson hate all over again,, just because their aren't instant results doesn't mean that it automatically qualifies we should get rid. Rioch/BSA and Neal would have all gone way earlier had we stuck to that model/approach

Where have I said I hate Doogie or want him to fail?

Hoboh would have sacked Fergie at Man Yoo about 15 times as well when he started

The game like it or like it not gentlemen has moved on and with next seasons Prem cash its moving again, you just don't have acres of time.

Whilst I didn't or don't like Megson, I was using it as an analogy about not giving the manager at least a chance to stamp his authority on the team.

I didn't mean or certainly don't mean it to come across as confrontational but you seem to want instant results or that's the way it appeared to me

The chairmans stated aim at the begining of the season was a return to the Premier league, he finally realised that Coyle was not going to deliver and appointed Mr Freedman. Given that the chairman has not publicly gone back on his prior aims is it not fair to assume they are still standing? he appointed a man who he must believe is capable of delivering this so is it wrong for us to judge him on this criteria? The problem is with the new cash upstairs anyone trying to play there after next season will find the gulf almost insurmountable and relegation as good as the norm for promoted teams. Whilst I am looking for results fairly quicky, like quite a few others, the pressure will be on Doogie to deliver and he needs to be picking up points fairly rapidly and has about 12 games to prove he can do it or the chairman should come out and say we are in a major rebuild and proberbly won't get promotion then resign because this mess is down to his lack of action earlier.
Anyway that's my view in a non confrontational way

[norm the jedi]

The chairmans stated aim at the begining of the season was a return to the Premier league, he finally realised that Coyle was not going to deliver and appointed Mr Freedman. Given that the chairman as not publicly gone back on his prior aims is it not fair to assume they are still standing? he appointed a man who he must believe is capable of delivering this so is it wrong for us to judge him on this criteria? The problem is with the new cash upstairs anyone trying to play there after next season will find the gulf almost insurmountable and relegation as good as the norm for promoted teams, whilst I am looking for results fairly quicky like quite a few others, the pressure will be on Doogie to deliver and he needs to be picking up points fairly rapidly and has about 12 games to prove he can do it or the chairman should come out and say we are in a major rebuild and proberbly won't get promotion the resign because this mess is down to his lack of action earlier.
Anyway that's my view in a non confrontational way

To be honest what would you expect Gartside to have said, "well we'll give it a run but we're a bit shit to be honest." Every chairman in his position will talk up the bounce back...
Calling DF to account after seven games for something Garty said in the summer in a pr puff is a bit daft. Lets leave the fella do his job and have a Chat this time next season when we've had a couple of windows and it's all bedded in. For the record I thought it was an odd appointment but let's leave the pitchforks in the shed for a bit.

[BWFC_Insane]

As norm has said hoboh, what was Gartside meant to do when appointing Freedman? Say "feck it we can't go up anyhow now"? He'd have got hammered for that.

What he actually said when Freedman was appointed on the radio was that there was "no pressure from him or Eddie for promotion but that Freedman would create his own pressure. And that what he expected was improvement in form and results. And that was what he was looking for.

[boltonboris]

So ultimately, points per game % and league placings are the indicator to judge his improvement, no?

[Worthy4England]

So ultimately, points per game % and league placings are the indicator to judge his improvement, no?

Tricky, as the PPG could increase whilst the league placing decreases.

I think PPG can show whether you're improving or not, against what you were previously achieving, it doesn't necessarily show that you are improving against the rest of the league (which could be improving independently of you. )

[boltonboris]

But have we improved? I know it's early days but people are talking like we've seen substantial improvement...

I'm sure Eddie couldn't give a feck that our centre backs are clearing more headers away and getting more blocks etc, or that the midfield is less open or whatever, as ling as we're clocking up a decent points ratio..

So on that basis, he'll be judged on results.. He's not delivering them, yet. And that's surely got to be a worry.

Yet again, people will say it's early doors, but 90% of the time (i'd imagine) you'd see a positive upturn in points in the 10 games after a managerial change. That builds a base to kick on. We've not found even bought the cement mix for the foundations yet.

[boltonboris]

Also, Worthy. Do you want my ticket for the Brum game?

[BWFC_Insane]

But have we improved? I know it's early days but people are talking like we've seen substantial improvement...

I'm sure Eddie couldn't give a feck that our centre backs are clearing more headers away and getting more blocks etc, or that the midfield is less open or whatever, as ling as we're clocking up a decent points ratio..

So on that basis, he'll be judged on results.. He's not delivering them, yet. And that's surely got to be a worry.

Yet again, people will say it's early doors, but 90% of the time (i'd imagine) you'd see a positive upturn in points in the 10 games after a managerial change. That builds a base to kick on. We've not found even bought the cement mix for the foundations yet.

We have in terms of PPG.

And I guess the question is whether that is an increasing trend or a blip associated with a new manager.

But lets say we finish this season 18th. But Dougie then goes on to rebuild us and we storm the championship before finishing 12th in the premiership the next season.

We'd all take that now. Or should IMO.

So what I'm looking for is whether he's astute enough to progress over a proper time period. I knew Coyle wasn't.

I haven't decided with Dougie yet, but like some of the early signs. Its still way way way too early to tell yet either way!

[boltonboris]

I'm just looking for signs that we're clearly better off. I'm not really seeing it to be honest. But despite the argument that he's "only been here 5 minutes", I'd expect to see us improve after a couple of games. They should be playing with more hunger, desire, a better tempo. But we're not. We're still going through the motions. He doesn't seem to have been able to lift the players like a new manager should.

[boltonboris]

I'll add too, that he talks a good game, but just dismissing the current lot and banging on about "shaping the team" his own way is a cop-out. He was brought in to improve the current lot.. Not to feck them all off and rebuild from the ground up..

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm just looking for signs that we're clearly better off. I'm not really seeing it to be honest. But despite the argument that he's "only been here 5 minutes", I'd expect to see us improve after a couple of games. They should be playing with more hunger, desire, a better tempo. But we're not. We're still going through the motions. He doesn't seem to have been able to lift the players like a new manager should.

Do you think its a motivational problem though?

I think its more that we had a complete lack of structure and plan for the past 3 years and a diminishing quality of player.

We suffered a terrible run of form over 18 months, with virtually no leadership from the dugout and are now trying to rebuild confidence and put together a plan for the short and long term.

Initially we needed to start grinding out results which we have and did.

The second part is assessing what we've got, what we need, who can be "rebuilt" and who isn't going to contribute.

The third part will be implementing that and making the necessary changes.

The way Freedman talks and what the players say he is doing is a bit reminiscent of when Allardyce arrived. It didn't happen for him overnight though, but it shows that IF you've got the right guy a bit of patience can go a long way.

Not saying we've got the right guy, but its just impossible to tell now.

[boltonboris]

I'm just looking for signs that we're clearly better off. I'm not really seeing it to be honest. But despite the argument that he's "only been here 5 minutes", I'd expect to see us improve after a couple of games. They should be playing with more hunger, desire, a better tempo. But we're not. We're still going through the motions. He doesn't seem to have been able to lift the players like a new manager should.

Do you think its a motivational problem though?

I think its more that we had a complete lack of structure and plan for the past 3 years and a diminishing quality of player.

We suffered a terrible run of form over 18 months, with virtually no leadership from the dugout and are now trying to rebuild confidence and put together a plan for the short and long term.

Initially we needed to start grinding out results which we have and did.

The second part is assessing what we've got, what we need, who can be "rebuilt" and who isn't going to contribute.

The third part will be implementing that and making the necessary changes.

The way Freedman talks and what the players say he is doing is a bit reminiscent of when Allardyce arrived. It didn't happen for him overnight though, but it shows that IF you've got the right guy a bit of patience can go a long way.

Not saying we've got the right guy, but its just impossible to tell now.

It only took Allardyce about 5 games to start seeing dramatic improvements.

In the middle of all of that (most of which I agree with), you've left out that he needs to get the best out of "what we've got". Until he sorts that out, he's on a hiding to nothing. Surely by now he has an indication of "what we need", yet he's still chopping and changing the side. I'll forgive him doing that at Huddersfield, because there's 5 or 6 players who didn't do enough to warrant getting picked after Ipswich, but it's a worrying trend and it seems like guesswork.

Throw enough shit and some of it sticks.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm just looking for signs that we're clearly better off. I'm not really seeing it to be honest. But despite the argument that he's "only been here 5 minutes", I'd expect to see us improve after a couple of games. They should be playing with more hunger, desire, a better tempo. But we're not. We're still going through the motions. He doesn't seem to have been able to lift the players like a new manager should.

Do you think its a motivational problem though?

I think its more that we had a complete lack of structure and plan for the past 3 years and a diminishing quality of player.

We suffered a terrible run of form over 18 months, with virtually no leadership from the dugout and are now trying to rebuild confidence and put together a plan for the short and long term.

Initially we needed to start grinding out results which we have and did.

The second part is assessing what we've got, what we need, who can be "rebuilt" and who isn't going to contribute.

The third part will be implementing that and making the necessary changes.

The way Freedman talks and what the players say he is doing is a bit reminiscent of when Allardyce arrived. It didn't happen for him overnight though, but it shows that IF you've got the right guy a bit of patience can go a long way.

Not saying we've got the right guy, but its just impossible to tell now.

It only took Allardyce about 5 games to start seeing dramatic improvements.

In the middle of all of that (most of which I agree with), you've left out that he needs to get the best out of "what we've got". Until he sorts that out, he's on a hiding to nothing. Surely by now he has an indication of "what we need", yet he's still chopping and changing the side. I'll forgive him doing that at Huddersfield, because there's 5 or 6 players who didn't do enough to warrant getting picked after Ipswich, but it's a worrying trend and it seems like guesswork.

Throw enough shit and some of it sticks.

We had some good results initially under Sam. But then we went on an awful run with the Tranmere semi final two legs sandwiched in the middle. Was it 6 defeats out of 7, no win in 12 or something like that. Yes we had a run later on that took us to 6th, but I think I'm using him as an example because at the time a lot of the stuff you are saying about Dougie people said about him.

Negative football, chopping and changing players, "odd selections" (he got mullered for playing Frank Passi on the wing IIRC in the cup).

[CAPSLOCK]

I can only think somebody who thinks it took Fatman 6 games didn't go to Walsall on New Years Day

And lets not forget the players he had in the ranks

That was another team that was managed by a dreamer through to a relegation that shouldn't have happened

[Worthy4England]

But have we improved? I know it's early days but people are talking like we've seen substantial improvement...

I'm sure Eddie couldn't give a feck that our centre backs are clearing more headers away and getting more blocks etc, or that the midfield is less open or whatever, as ling as we're clocking up a decent points ratio..

So on that basis, he'll be judged on results.. He's not delivering them, yet. And that's surely got to be a worry.

Yet again, people will say it's early doors, but 90% of the time (i'd imagine) you'd see a positive upturn in points in the 10 games after a managerial change. That builds a base to kick on. We've not found even bought the cement mix for the foundations yet.

Don't disagree particularly - we had what? 11 points from 10 games when Coyle left and have 10 from 7 under Freedman - That's the difference between 51 points and 66 over a season. 66 would have seen us 9th/10th last year, 51 would have seen us 17th - so neither really setting the world alight. So improvement - yes some, sort of improvement we were looking for - probably not at the moment.

We've already leaked 30 goals this season, over a season, that would be 20 more goals than anyone in the top 6 last season.

We've scored 28, which over a season would equate to 64 which is lower than anyone in the top 6 last season.

So you're right - we're not seeing any major honeymoon effect at the moment, in a sense that it might get us near a playoff place.

Thanks for the offer of Brum ticket - If it has a good home to go to then great, if not, please could I let you know nearer the time - I've no idea yet whether my advanced planning department has me scheduled to go and visit Great Auntie Mable on that day.

[boltonboris]

Nobody else will want them mate... I'll keep them open for you, but if you want the pair just text when you know if you can make it.

[Worthy4England]

Nobody else will want them mate... I'll keep them open for you, but if you want the pair just text when you know if you can make it.

Cheers Boris.

[Lord Kangana]

I remember going to QPR away a handful of games into Allardyce's tenure. The turnaround was remarkable. A good set of players that had been shipping as many goals as they could score suddenly looked like a superb team. 1-0 away win, that we'd never have got only a few weeks previously. It'd probably have been 3-3 or something.

Just for the record.

[CAPSLOCK]

I remember going to QPR away a handful of games into Allardyce's tenure. The turnaround was remarkable. A good set of players that had been shipping as many goals as they could score suddenly looked like a superb team. 1-0 away win, that we'd never have got only a few weeks previously. It'd probably have been 3-3 or something.

Just for the record.

That was 3 months in

It was a week and a bit after Walsall

I can't find our team, but its likely it included Gardner, Elliot, Cox, Bergsson, Jensen, Johansen, Bob Taylor - I reckon I could have got results from them

[Lord Kangana]

Jensen MOTM - and bloody tackling too.