quick pole

[thebish]

This isn't his team, though, is it

which is a fair point - and the ultimate nail in Coyle's coffin - because not only couldn't he motivate and organise the team - he assembled the team in the first place...

It doesn't entirely get Douglas off the hook though..

1. this IS Douglas's team - in the sense that he is employed to manage it - and he accepted that job
2. many loud voices told us at the start of the season that this squad is premiership quality - and all it needed was someone to do the simple of job of organising it.. in fact - some people suggested that pretty much any manager other than Coyle could easily organise this current squad into a lean, mean , awesome match-winning machine... (in fact, IIRC - at least one person suggested their grandma could do it.)

It's still way too early to be calling Dougie either a success or a failure - I have every confidence it will turn out a success - but it still could go either way and we won't know for a good while yet...

[CAPSLOCK]

Right

Nobody wanted the cock out of the club more than me

But, I think he did assemble some cracking players (for this League)

He didn't build a team though

That's why I still think we can go up - in fact, I think we will go up

2 or 3 players, nothing flash, we've got all the flair we need, sees us fly in this division

If Freedman doesn't go very, very close to getting us up, I'll be extremely surprised

We needn't do anything amazing, just stop throwing points away - we could even have 3 kickers on the bench

Get in front, then on come the heavy mob

[thebish]

Right

Nobody wanted the cock out of the club more than me

But, I think he did assemble some cracking players (for this League)

He didn't build a team though

That's why I still think we can go up - in fact, I think we will go up

I think we still have every chance of making the play-offs... beyond that - it's a lottery...

[TKIZ!]

He did, he said it at the start of his tenure!

Right, Freedman out!

[SmokinFrazier]

We quite clearly don't have a bad team. I'm not sure why people persist in repeating the idea that Coyle left us with a pile of shite. He didn't, he left us a strong squad.

We have players who collectively must have around 200 international caps. We have senior internationals and young prospects. There isn't a better squad in the league.

The issue is, neither Coyle or Freedman have got the best out of the players - so far, hopefully.

[officer_dibble]

Get a psychologist in then if we are the best squad in the league...

Holden and Wheater are massive injuries

I think Eagles and Mark Davies are two of the best players in this league. Chungy as well though he may just not be suited to it.

Beyond that there os nowt to suggest we could go up

[Peter Thompson]

I find it difficult to believe that you will cheer and be positive at the game due to all the bleating, whining and moaning that you do here.

What has this got to do with the team being mentally weak ?

Some people really need to get a grip & realise that this is just a football fans message board where fans should freely debate & discuss and even be allowed to actually disagree with each others opinions.

I'll tell you one thing though chief, I haven't done too much cheering in the past few years !, but I'm sure I once posted something positive - but probably only the once !

[Prufrock]

You definitely did once because everyone went crazy. It was ace .

[TANGODANCER]

I find it difficult to believe that you will cheer and be positive at the game due to all the bleating, whining and moaning that you do here.

What has this got to do with the team being mentally weak ?

Some people really need to get a grip & realise that this is just a football fans message board where fans should freely debate & discuss and even be allowed to actually disagree with each others opinions.

I'll tell you one thing though chief, I haven't done too much cheering in the past few years !, but I'm sure I once posted something positive - but probably only the once !

I remember it. It was a foggy Friday in July. I'm yo huckleberry.

[CAPSLOCK]

We quite clearly don't have a bad team. I'm not sure why people persist in repeating the idea that Coyle left us with a pile of shite. He didn't, he left us a strong squad.

We have players who collectively must have around 200 international caps. We have senior internationals and young prospects. There isn't a better squad in the league.

The issue is, neither Coyle or Freedman have got the best out of the players - so far, hopefully.

See, you've bought the hype

A good team/squad wouldn't be 18th

There's something quite clearly missing

Good teams aren't 18th chucking points away like confetti

We could be an Ian Marshall away from winning every week

It might be Gareth Farrelly

It might even be Stuart Holden

I suspect its replacements for Zat Knight and Kevin Davies

[SmokinFrazier]

Good teams aren't 18th chucking points away like confetti

Sunderland aren't a good side by Premier League standards? They have a front four of the prolific Fletcher up front, McClean on the left, Sessegnon in the middle and Johnson on the right, yet they can barely score goals.

Elsewhere in Europe, you have teams like Wolfsburg, Palermo, Valencia, Sevilla etc., all massively underperforming. We aren't an exception at all, and there are plenty of teams who debunk the idea that quality alone is enough. It's not enough, especially when the players are lacking in confidence and possibly good tactics from the manager.

There are plenty of good sides who aren't performing as well as they can do.

[a1]

Get a psychologist in then if we are the best squad in the league...

Holden and Wheater are massive injuries

I think Eagles and Mark Davies are two of the best players in this league. Chungy as well though he may just not be suited to it.

Beyond that there os nowt to suggest we could go up

what's that stat ?

"if we could hold onto winning positions we've created we'd be top"

fix that, either by scoring more or stop them going in, and there's summat to suggest we will.

at least doug knows

[officer_dibble]

Well yeah. Maybe its Wheater instead of Knight. Maybe its a hybrid of Ngog and Klasnic up front. Whilst we wait for Jan I'd be getting the psychologist in and pissing in every corner of the ground...owt to change the mindset.

[Hoboh]

Staring down the barrel often concentrates the mind

[BWFC_Insane]

Good teams aren't 18th chucking points away like confetti

Sunderland aren't a good side by Premier League standards? They have a front four of the prolific Fletcher up front, McClean on the left, Sessegnon in the middle and Johnson on the right, yet they can barely score goals.

Elsewhere in Europe, you have teams like Wolfsburg, Palermo, Valencia, Sevilla etc., all massively underperforming. We aren't an exception at all, and there are plenty of teams who debunk the idea that quality alone is enough. It's not enough, especially when the players are lacking in confidence and possibly good tactics from the manager.

There are plenty of good sides who aren't performing as well as they can do.

I'd say they are not. I'm not entirely sure what your point is there? McClean was a hit when he arrived on the scene but is having second season syndrome. Fletcher is ok, but not exactly great by premier league standards and Sessegnon is hot and cold. Reads to me as a very average front line in the premiership that. And not surprising Sunderland are struggling. They do have a good manager though, IMO (probably not a popular view on here).

I think Caps is right. We have some good players for this level at least but they aren't fitting together. It could just be one or two key players that we're missing to make us tick. I think he's right in identifying the positions we're weak in too.

I think confidence is a big part, I think tactically we are more or less getting it right now. Players seem to be saying so too.

But you don't have the last 2 years worth of results we've had simply because players are "underperforming". There are deeper lying problems than that. Some of which were the previous manager (almost all of which were down to him directly and indirectly). Its clear that we just didn't have the planning and preparation done properly before, the pre-season did not appear to prepare us and the fitness and organisational structures put in place seemed to be a joke. I remember listening to an interview with Ferguson once where he said that an awful lot of what you do can only be done pre-season. He said 99% of set piece organisation is done pre-season along with fitness work, shape, tactics, working on different systems for different situations. He reckoned it was virtually impossible to do most of that once you had matches every week.

Another telling thing for me is that Chris Eagles is our outstanding player this season. Certainly creatively and in an attacking sense. And Eagles is a decent player, lets not pretend otherwise. But he's wildly, wildly, inconsistent. He can be on another level one week, then wasting great openings with wild shots the next. We are quite dependent upon him, but that is quite dangerous because you never really know which Eagles will turn up.

In my view we just haven't really been able to get going this season. That can sometimes happen when you start poorly. I just worry that too many of our current players have already "given up". Not necessarily consciously but we've been used to losing for 2 years now. I suspect they thought that when we went down (like a lot of people did) that it would be all ace cos we would start winning again. The reality has been somewhat different sadly. Sometimes it takes a few fresh faces to refresh things and kickstart a club. Other times it takes a complete rebuild.

I suspect Dougie is assessing which it is going to be. I'm fairly positive that we will continue to do better with Dougie in charge. I'm not convinced that we will suddenly embark on the sort of run everyone is expecting. We haven't managed that in two years and I'm not sure these players at BWFC will ever manage it, as I think its gone on for too long now. The culture and mentality needs changing, but sometimes and usually that takes place over a period of years not in a heartbeat.

[Hoboh]

Good teams aren't 18th chucking points away like confetti

Sunderland aren't a good side by Premier League standards? They have a front four of the prolific Fletcher up front, McClean on the left, Sessegnon in the middle and Johnson on the right, yet they can barely score goals.

Elsewhere in Europe, you have teams like Wolfsburg, Palermo, Valencia, Sevilla etc., all massively underperforming. We aren't an exception at all, and there are plenty of teams who debunk the idea that quality alone is enough. It's not enough, especially when the players are lacking in confidence and possibly good tactics from the manager.

There are plenty of good sides who aren't performing as well as they can do.

I'd say they are not. I'm not entirely sure what your point is there? McClean was a hit when he arrived on the scene but is having second season syndrome. Fletcher is ok, but not exactly great by premier league standards and Sessegnon is hot and cold. Reads to me as a very average front line in the premiership that. And not surprising Sunderland are struggling. They do have a good manager though, IMO (probably not a popular view on here).

I think Caps is right. We have some good players for this level at least but they aren't fitting together. It could just be one or two key players that we're missing to make us tick. I think he's right in identifying the positions we're weak in too.

I think confidence is a big part, I think tactically we are more or less getting it right now. Players seem to be saying so too.

But you don't have the last 2 years worth of results we've had simply because players are "underperforming". There are deeper lying problems than that. Some of which were the previous manager (almost all of which were down to him directly and indirectly). Its clear that we just didn't have the planning and preparation done properly before, the pre-season did not appear to prepare us and the fitness and organisational structures put in place seemed to be a joke. I remember listening to an interview with Ferguson once where he said that an awful lot of what you do can only be done pre-season. He said 99% of set piece organisation is done pre-season along with fitness work, shape, tactics, working on different systems for different situations. He reckoned it was virtually impossible to do most of that once you had matches every week.

Another telling thing for me is that Chris Eagles is our outstanding player this season. Certainly creatively and in an attacking sense. And Eagles is a decent player, lets not pretend otherwise. But he's wildly, wildly, inconsistent. He can be on another level one week, then wasting great openings with wild shots the next. We are quite dependent upon him, but that is quite dangerous because you never really know which Eagles will turn up.

In my view we just haven't really been able to get going this season. That can sometimes happen when you start poorly. I just worry that too many of our current players have already "given up". Not necessarily consciously but we've been used to losing for 2 years now. I suspect they thought that when we went down (like a lot of people did) that it would be all ace cos we would start winning again. The reality has been somewhat different sadly. Sometimes it takes a few fresh faces to refresh things and kickstart a club. Other times it takes a complete rebuild.

I suspect Dougie is assessing which it is going to be. I'm fairly positive that we will continue to do better with Dougie in charge. I'm not convinced that we will suddenly embark on the sort of run everyone is expecting. We haven't managed that in two years and I'm not sure these players at BWFC will ever manage it, as I think its gone on for too long now. The culture and mentality needs changing, but sometimes and usually that takes place over a period of years not in a heartbeat.

That being the case we'd best not mock Bury then and start preparing for another 30 years of hurt!
BTW that would spell just how long Gartside is past his sell by date.

[SmokinFrazier]

Sunderland aren't a good side by Premier League standards? They have a front four of the prolific Fletcher up front, McClean on the left, Sessegnon in the middle and Johnson on the right, yet they can barely score goals.

I'd say they are not. I'm not entirely sure what your point is there? McClean was a hit when he arrived on the scene but is having second season syndrome. Fletcher is ok, but not exactly great by premier league standards and Sessegnon is hot and cold. Reads to me as a very average front line in the premiership that. And not surprising Sunderland are struggling. They do have a good manager though, IMO (probably not a popular view on here).

The point is that a good bunch of individuals does not equal a good team.

Sunderland have plenty of quality in their team and at the start of the season, I think you'd back them for an easy mid table finish and yet they're struggling. It's not because the quality isn't there, because it is, it's because of other factors. There are plenty of sides in the Premier League who would kill for the likes of Sessegnon, Johnson, Fletcher, Cattermole and others. They aren't a side who should be 18th in the league, just like we aren't. Failure to get points doesn't mean that the players aren't good enough, and I agree with a lot of the other comments you made about cohesion, confidence etc.. Those are the reasons we aren't performing well, not the individual quality of our squad. How many teams in the Championship wouldn't start the likes of Mark Davies, Eagles, Chungy, Ricketts, Spearing, Petrov, Andrews and so on? We have quality in abundance but quality alone is not enough, so to argue that a lack of results must mean a lack of quality is not something I agree with.

[BWFC_Insane]

Sunderland aren't a good side by Premier League standards? They have a front four of the prolific Fletcher up front, McClean on the left, Sessegnon in the middle and Johnson on the right, yet they can barely score goals.

I'd say they are not. I'm not entirely sure what your point is there? McClean was a hit when he arrived on the scene but is having second season syndrome. Fletcher is ok, but not exactly great by premier league standards and Sessegnon is hot and cold. Reads to me as a very average front line in the premiership that. And not surprising Sunderland are struggling. They do have a good manager though, IMO (probably not a popular view on here).

The point is that a good bunch of individuals does not equal a good team.

Sunderland have plenty of quality in their team and at the start of the season, I think you'd back them for an easy mid table finish and yet they're struggling. It's not because the quality isn't there, because it is, it's because of other factors. There are plenty of sides in the Premier League who would kill for the likes of Sessegnon, Johnson, Fletcher, Cattermole and others. They aren't a side who should be 18th in the league, just like we aren't. Failure to get points doesn't mean that the players aren't good enough, and I agree with a lot of the other comments you made about cohesion, confidence etc.. Those are the reasons we aren't performing well, not the individual quality of our squad. How many teams in the Championship wouldn't start the likes of Mark Davies, Eagles, Chungy, Ricketts, Spearing, Petrov, Andrews and so on? We have quality in abundance but quality alone is not enough, so to argue that a lack of results must mean a lack of quality is not something I agree with.

I guess the think is that there are question marks over every single one of those players and you may also, and I may also have overrated them.

I'm guessing if you asked a Crystal Palace fan which of those they'd swap for a player in their side they would laugh at you right now.

I do agree with your general point though about it being about more than individual quality.

Look at the side with Jensen, Fish, Gudjohnsen, Johansen, and the like that could not go up. But the next year one built on frees and loans with the likes of Charlton, Barness, Whitlow etc did......

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Look. We're a little bit shit. We've been somewhere between a little bit shit and a lot shit for getting on for 2 years. This on paper and we've a good squad and we shouldn't be 18th is bollocks. We're where we are because we're a bit/lot shit. The sooner you stop clinging on to the we've a good squad the easier it will be on you. Dougie has his work cut out...

[Toni_DelijeSever]

Up to league 1? Of course!