The Great Art Debate

[Gary the Enfield]

Well I went. I have to admit Mummy that when I read your reply I was a little daunted as to what you were expecting from me by way of review.

Sorry, i didn't mean to do that and have just read back and seen that I did go off on one a bit.


I enjoyed your review anyway - I am more inclined to go now than I was before.

You really should go. And don't worry, you prompted me to look a lot closer than I generally would and I and daughter (who surprised me with her insight) were all the more enriched for it. My friends got through the exhibition in an hour. We took 1 and 1/2 hours for the first 3 rooms, which is why we're going back as we had to rush through the last sections.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I appreciate the fact you've replied, but it's been along and emotional day after a hard night's drinking - but I promise I will be back with an answer slightly longer than what I'm about to give, but in simple terms you are incorrect to state that "none of them made innovations or started movements that were adopted around Europe" - viz just two examples, Bridget Riley almost singlehandedly invented op-art and Hogarth was certainly one of the first, if not the first, to express lower-order social reality through the medium of paint, and that his innovation of social commentary within his field was instrumental in many a Western European artists development (Picasso and Guernica as just one example) is incontrovertible.

I have to admit I know next to nothing about Riley. Some research suggests that you're right and that that's another dent in my ignorance!

I like Hogarth but don't agree with your analysis. I don't think he can be credited as being amongst the first to paint 'lower order reality'.

And to suggest a link between Guernica and Hogarth is far fetched in my opinion.

I like Hogarth precisely because he represents the one thing the English do do a little bit differently and well, which is unpretentious humour. I like his paintings precisely because of their English 'otherness'.

Back to the fray. Hogarth. Prior to the eighteenth century there was virtually no 'social reportage' in art. Subject matters were confined to Religious themes, and the great and the good. Portraiture had come about (with Hilliard as one of the major innovators - but we'll argue him later if you want), but only the richest of the neauveax riche middle classes qualified even for that. It is no coincidence that the rise of the novel began about the same time that social reportage in painting came about - and Hogarth was a leading proponent of that. Guernica, in the sense of social reportage - and interviews with Picasso make it plain that his main aim with Guernica was to condemn indiscriminate bombing of civilians by the new fangled methods of aerial warfare, and therefore is social reportage - could not have come about without that tradition having been established. So I don't see your problem with that connection, but that aside, I don't need to trely on social reportage to demonstrate Hogarth's worth in the scheme of Western European painting tradition as he single-handedly established serialisation, and without serialisation Marvel comics would not have arisen, nor I suspect would Lichtenstein have become the figure that he is.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Thanks, Gary. A really interesting report. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm tempted myself, even though, the P-Rs have never really done it for me. I'm interested in the idea that the accumulated effect might reveal something.

Our friend Mr Sewell reckons the accumulated effect is somewhat obscured by the curator, but yes, me too.

http://www.standard.co.uk/arts/visual-a ... 34923.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I used to like the PRs primarily because the Walker in Liverpool had some important ones, and that was all I had access to, but having gone off them considerably I do want to go back and reevaluate given that there might not be another exhibition like this in 30 years.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Back to the fray. Hogarth. Prior to the eighteenth century there was virtually no 'social reportage' in art. Subject matters were confined to Religious themes, and the great and the good. Portraiture had come about (with Hilliard as one of the major innovators - but we'll argue him later if you want), but only the richest of the neauveax riche middle classes qualified even for that. It is no coincidence that the rise of the novel began about the same time that social reportage in painting came about - and Hogarth was a leading proponent of that. Guernica, in the sense of social reportage - and interviews with Picasso make it plain that his main aim with Guernica was to condemn indiscriminate bombing of civilians by the new fangled methods of aerial warfare, and therefore is social reportage - could not have come about without that tradition having been established. So I don't see your problem with that connection, but that aside, I don't need to trely on social reportage to demonstrate Hogarth's worth in the scheme of Western European painting tradition as he single-handedly established serialisation, and without serialisation Marvel comics would not have arisen, nor I suspect would Lichtenstein have become the figure that he is.

I can't have it that the abandonment of religious themes/the great and the good only came in the 18th century with Hogarth.

His 'rediscovery' of serialisation, as this is something that was very prevalent in 13th and 14th century religious art as a way of telling bible stories, is an interesting idea, and a noteworthy offshoot in the history of Western European painting. No more than that, inmy humble opinion.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Back to the fray. Hogarth. Prior to the eighteenth century there was virtually no 'social reportage' in art. Subject matters were confined to Religious themes, and the great and the good. Portraiture had come about (with Hilliard as one of the major innovators - but we'll argue him later if you want), but only the richest of the neauveax riche middle classes qualified even for that. It is no coincidence that the rise of the novel began about the same time that social reportage in painting came about - and Hogarth was a leading proponent of that. Guernica, in the sense of social reportage - and interviews with Picasso make it plain that his main aim with Guernica was to condemn indiscriminate bombing of civilians by the new fangled methods of aerial warfare, and therefore is social reportage - could not have come about without that tradition having been established. So I don't see your problem with that connection, but that aside, I don't need to trely on social reportage to demonstrate Hogarth's worth in the scheme of Western European painting tradition as he single-handedly established serialisation, and without serialisation Marvel comics would not have arisen, nor I suspect would Lichtenstein have become the figure that he is.

I can't have it that the abandonment of religious themes/the great and the good only came in the 18th century with Hogarth.

His 'rediscovery' of serialisation, as this is something that was very prevalent in 13th and 14th century religious art as a way of telling bible stories, is an interesting idea, and a noteworthy offshoot in the history of Western European painting. No more than that, inmy humble opinion.

Twisting my words slightly. I didn't say abandonment - I said the start of other than religious themes/great and the good.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Sorry, I was imprecise there, but I don't agree that it started there. I'll compile some examples this evening.

[William the White]

There were certainly famous artists who worked outside the established genres, of the devotional, the royal, the rich, the noble, the mythical and the martial before Hogarth - though they weren't doing it in the Hogarth satirical form.

For example, Velasquez, rightly renowned as a Court painter (most famously for Las Meninas), early in his career, in his Seville period, painted the common people of the city - the two greatest pictures being - arguably - his Old Woman Cooking Eggs and, probably the best-known, The Water Seller of Seville.

Hogarth was certainly an important artist, not only in his subject matter, but also in his move to engravings which enabled the much wider distribution of his work. I think he helped usher in the world of the political cartoon that comes into its own in the 19th Century and thrives until now, and spreads around Europe.

An important innovator. A major contributor to the development of a new kind of visual art. IMHO. Hogarth House in Chiswick is an excellent small museum, located just by the Fullers brewery - which has its own brewery tap. A good un!

Interestimg point LLS makes about the development of the novel around this time - most notably Defoe's Moll Flanders, the likely inspiration for his The Harlot's Progress. And, arguably, Voltaire's Candide. There's something in the air of the time, and creative imaginations are exploring that.

LLS is pushing it into the extremely tenuous though to try to claim a link between Hogarth and Picasso...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

LLS is pushing it into the extremely tenuous though to try to claim a link between Hogarth and Picasso...

I don't think it is extremely tenuous. I'll admit I used Picasso for effect, but the point is surely once a trend has been established the weft and warp of that trend is hard to follow as a direct influence necessarily. Quite often just because something is in the public domain the entire culture is infused with it and therefore you can influence without being acknowledged by the artists being influenced.

Secondarily. I was thinking about this last night after I realised how wide I'd cast the net with the Great and the Good - I was specifically thinking about battle scenes and how they were an extension of Kingly Power and therefore still fit with what I was saying, and for no reason two artists popped into my head: Bosch and Velasquez. I decided that Bosch still fits into the 'religious' painter category, and that Velazquez was primarily a painter of the great and the good - although yes he did do a couple of paintings fearturing commoners - but it can be argued they were extensions of his main style which was portraiture.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

And continuing on the theme of Hogarth being a major artist in the Western European painting tradition.

Although Hogarth was fiercely English, and was the pre-eminent precursor and influence, through the Foundling Hospital, of the Royal Academy itself, he is also appreciated on the other side of the pond as below demonstrates:

Hogarth is widely recognized as the first native-born English artist to achieve true international standing… In addition to numerous works by Hogarth are works by his contemporaries and later artists influenced by his art. Together they present a new perspective on an artist whose fascination with the underside of eighteenth-century London society has remained unfailingly popular throughout nearly three centuries. Hogarth and His Times places the artist within a broad social and visual context, and examines the complexity of Hogarth's satire, the audience at whom it was directed, and its reinterpretation by other artists.
The exhibition reveals the breadth of Hogarth's artistic achievement on a number of levels: his elevation of the status of the artist within English society; his revolutionizing of the popular art market; and his creation of a new, moralizing role for art. Hogarth's legacy for later generations of artists is also examined, moving back in time from the work of contemporary English artist David Hockney to Hogarth's nineteenth-century followers, to his contemporary imitators. This major exhibition suggests a new way of thinking about Hogarth: the differing identities that he presented during his own lifetime and those that have arisen in the years since his death.

And here…

William Hogarth was important to the entire circle of the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood and its associates. Hogarth was particularly important to Hunt because he expanded traditional notions of serious painting… "Hogarth argued… that his "modern moral Subjects" were not contemptible caricatures but a new genre: "writers never mention," he complains in the Notes, "in the historical way of an intermediate species of subjects for painting between the sublime and the grotesque" (Hogarth's Graphic Works, I, 12).

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Sorry, I was imprecise there, but I don't agree that it started there. I'll compile some examples this evening.

I still haven't found time to do this.

To be honest, I had something much more widespread in mind than the likes of Velasquez having the occasional frolic onto this ground.

For example, so much of the subject matter in the Dutch Golden Age (second half of 16th C to first half of 17th C) was everyday 'genre' paintings, as well as for Flemish painters working at that time. I'm thinking Vermeer, Hals, Steen and many, many others.

Look at 'Scenes of everyday day life' in this Wiki article for a good flavour of the sort of paintings I'm talking about. Open up the Gerrit van Honthorst painting for the earliest example of a nip-slip shot I have ever seen! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Age_painting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, all of this was happening at least a hundred years before Hogarth was born - a long, long time in art history and the equivalent of the entire Renaissance.

I find this an interesting discussion, because I am a fan of Hogarth's and have no wish to denigrate his achievements or reputation. I agree with all this talk of his being a pioneer in terms of satire, humour and social commentary. I agree that he was the grandfather of the very popular political cartoons of the Victorian age and still in newspapers today.

I think the above represents high praise and recognition; something that is not detracted from by my view of where he sits in the history of Western European Painting.

When I talk about that tradition, I am talking about something that encompasses painterly values and ideas around technique, treatment of light, composition and, yes, subject matter and comment.

In a copy of the Frieze Masters magazine that I forgot to pass on to William at Brighton away, there is an interview with Grayson Perry in which he talks about Hogarth and says: "If [he] were working today I think he might have directed soap operas." That works for me - Hogarth as the director of soap operas, rather than, say, the feature film tradition that might be the equivalent of the painting tradition I am thinking of.

[William the White]

At 9.00 Waldemar Januszak continues his series on the art of 'The Dark Ages' on the brilliant BBC4 with an episode on the art of Islam, that I'm looking forward to very much, anticipating the possibility of glimpses of Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada.

This is followed at 10.00 with the continuation of the early history of Rome and the role of religion in its development.

The first ep was excellent.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Yes, both series that I want to find time to watch.

This reminds me... I have recently finished Brian Sewell's excellent recently released autobiography, and in one passage lamenting the art history programmes on TV at the moment, Sewell writes:

"... Waldemar Januszczak who has the physical charms of a North Korean despot and a command of French that compels him to pronounce Seurat as Sewer Rat. Eheu, Eheu...."

[TANGODANCER]

At 9.00 Waldemar Januszak continues his series on the art of 'The Dark Ages' on the brilliant BBC4 with an episode on the art of Islam, that I'm looking forward to very much, anticipating the possibility of glimpses of Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada.

This is followed at 10.00 with the continuation of the early history of Rome and the role of religion in its development.

The first ep was excellent.

What will it comprise Will, given that their religion almost forbade the painting of human form? I imagine much of it will be geometrical rather than pictorial? I'll stand correction.

[thebish]

At 9.00 Waldemar Januszak continues his series on the art of 'The Dark Ages' on the brilliant BBC4 with an episode on the art of Islam, that I'm looking forward to very much, anticipating the possibility of glimpses of Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada.

This is followed at 10.00 with the continuation of the early history of Rome and the role of religion in its development.

The first ep was excellent.

What will it comprise Will, given that their religion almost forbade the painting of human form? I imagine much of it will be geometrical rather than pictorial? I'll stand correction.

may also include calligraphy... and sculpture and objects - not so much paintings that aren't geometric patterns.. (as you point out)

[TANGODANCER]

At 9.00 Waldemar Januszak continues his series on the art of 'The Dark Ages' on the brilliant BBC4 with an episode on the art of Islam, that I'm looking forward to very much, anticipating the possibility of glimpses of Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada.

This is followed at 10.00 with the continuation of the early history of Rome and the role of religion in its development.

The first ep was excellent.

What will it comprise Will, given that their religion almost forbade the painting of human form? I imagine much of it will be geometrical rather than pictorial? I'll stand correction.

may also include calligraphy... and sculpture and objects - not so much paintings that aren't geometric patterns.. (as you point out)

Almost certainly caligraphy, quotes from the Quran etc, the Alhambra Palace is covered in them. Funnily,there must have been an Islamic rebel somewhere, because, at each end of an arch on one of the pillars in Sevilla's Alcazar, where the architecture is almost exclusively Moorish, is a small doll-type face (I've seen them). The arch is actually the entrance to El Patio de las munecas (muneca means doll in Spanish)

[William the White]

At 9.00 Waldemar Januszak continues his series on the art of 'The Dark Ages' on the brilliant BBC4 with an episode on the art of Islam, that I'm looking forward to very much, anticipating the possibility of glimpses of Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada.

This is followed at 10.00 with the continuation of the early history of Rome and the role of religion in its development.

The first ep was excellent.

What will it comprise Will, given that their religion almost forbade the painting of human form? I imagine much of it will be geometrical rather than pictorial? I'll stand correction.

may also include calligraphy... and sculpture and objects - not so much paintings that aren't geometric patterns.. (as you point out)

Almost certainly caligraphy, quotes from the Quran etc, the Alhambra Palace is covered in them. Funnily,there must have been an Islamic rebel somewhere, because, at each end of an arch on one of the pillars in Sevilla's Alcazar, where the architecture is almost exclusively Moorish, is a small doll-type face (I've seen them). The arch is actually the entrance to El Patio de las munecas (muneca means doll in Spanish)

I thought this was a really interesting programme... And did include scenes from Cordoba, and especially the mosque, and it always cheers me, perhaps especially in December, to see this beautiful city...

Tango, is, of course, right, Islamic art will not show the human form. But i liked the fact that the programme showed the Sheikh's bath house in Jordan with its explicit depictions of the Islamic heaven... Cool breezes, forests, fountains of wine, houris, love making etc... It missed the fact that this was clearly a ruler indulging himself in the transgressive, in a particularly opulent and explicit way, when he was naked - in his bath, and looking up to the ceiling where all his fantasies were being enacted, in bright colours, and jewels!

Calligraphy, of course, the bish... To my eyes, perhaps yours (?), Arabic script looks like an ornament, so beautiful, and calligraphy was one of the great accomplishments of Arabic art (stories in Arabian Nights talk of the 'Seven Writings' - different calligraphies)... There must be hundreds, thousands of miles of Q'ranic inscription around the Islamic buildings of the world...

For me, the shots of the mosque at Cordoba, too brief, were the highlight... but well done them for avoiding the grotesque desecration of the stupid catholic Cathedral at the middle of it...

[William the White]

Yes, both series that I want to find time to watch.

This reminds me... I have recently finished Brian Sewell's excellent recently released autobiography, and in one passage lamenting the art history programmes on TV at the moment, Sewell writes:

"... Waldemar Januszczak who has the physical charms of a North Korean despot and a command of French that compels him to pronounce Seurat as Sewer Rat. Eheu, Eheu...."

Have you ever thought Sewell Rat might be a tiny bit of a snob?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Yes, both series that I want to find time to watch.

This reminds me... I have recently finished Brian Sewell's excellent recently released autobiography, and in one passage lamenting the art history programmes on TV at the moment, Sewell writes:

"... Waldemar Januszczak who has the physical charms of a North Korean despot and a command of French that compels him to pronounce Seurat as Sewer Rat. Eheu, Eheu...."

Have you ever thought Sewell Rat might be a tiny bit of a snob?

Oh yes, he's a complete snob and parody of himself.

His book is so well written and honest that you forgive him for it and actually sometimes find his elitism and commitment to connoisseurship uplifting in this age of the lowest common demoninator.

[William the White]

Yes, both series that I want to find time to watch.

This reminds me... I have recently finished Brian Sewell's excellent recently released autobiography, and in one passage lamenting the art history programmes on TV at the moment, Sewell writes:

"... Waldemar Januszczak who has the physical charms of a North Korean despot and a command of French that compels him to pronounce Seurat as Sewer Rat. Eheu, Eheu...."

Have you ever thought Sewell Rat might be a tiny bit of a snob?

Oh yes, he's a complete snob and parody of himself.

His book is so well written and honest that you forgive him for it and actually sometimes find his elitism and commitment to connoisseurship uplifting in this age of the lowest common demoninator.

An interesting dichotomy, elitism and ignorance... The first is unforgivable, the second equally so... the first the responsibility of the individual, the second that of the society... The first is despicable, the second alterable...

[TANGODANCER]

I thought this was a really interesting programme... And did include scenes from Cordoba, and especially the mosque, and it always cheers me, perhaps especially in December, to see this beautiful city...

Tango, is, of course, right, Islamic art will not show the human form. But i liked the fact that the programme showed the Sheikh's bath house in Jordan with its explicit depictions of the Islamic heaven... Cool breezes, forests, fountains of wine, houris, love making etc... It missed the fact that this was clearly a ruler indulging himself in the transgressive, in a particularly opulent and explicit way, when he was naked - in his bath, and looking up to the ceiling where all his fantasies were being enacted, in bright colours, and jewels!

Calligraphy, of course, the bish... To my eyes, perhaps yours (?), Arabic script looks like an ornament, so beautiful, and calligraphy was one of the great accomplishments of Arabic art (stories in Arabian Nights talk of the 'Seven Writings' - different calligraphies)... There must be hundreds, thousands of miles of Q'ranic inscription around the Islamic buildings of the world...

For me, the shots of the mosque at Cordoba, too brief, were the highlight... but well done them for avoiding the grotesque desecration of the stupid catholic Cathedral at the middle of it...

Found it all highly interesting and carried on to watch Simon Sebag Montefiore's Rome.
So much knowlege, intelligence and skill in the past. History is, always has been, a fascinating subject. Almost the entire upper halves of all the Alhambras rooms are covered in Arabic script with geometrical glazed tiling below. Sadly, time is gradually taking its toll on many of the worlds ancient wonders.

Edit. The mosaic work in the Dome of the Rock was just staggering.