The Politics Thread

[Lord Kangana]

I'm pointing out the uniqueness of Norway.

I don't think people appreciate that Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU, because being EEA and The EU are not the same thing. Ditto for many of their exports.

So putting it into the context I've demonstrated above, where we are wholly reliant on trade with Europe, and where we enjoy much lower incomes, our imports and exports would be more expensive. Moreover, we would surrender the right to have any say in what rules were to govern our trade agreements in future. It would be a fools errand.

I admit to not knowing enough about Switzerland, but if i was a betting man, I'd wager that if I did some digging I'd come up with some fairly equivalent, in their own unique way, circumstances.

[Lord Kangana]

Well, if reports are to be believed, Switzerland's trade with the EU amounts to a mere fraction of the UK's. So that, perhaps, is the start of the trail.

[thebish]

I share his concern about the standard of our public debate at the moment. Next you thing you know we'll have just have people exchanging links, graphics and memes without ever passing their own comment.

or people might pretend to be interested by posing a question - and then when someone attempts an answer declare themselves bored of their own question....

[Lord Kangana]

And if you really want to bore yourself to tears...

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-oppo ... d-regions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I don't think people appreciate that Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU, because being EEA and The EU are not the same thing. Ditto for many of their exports.

That's not true, is it? I thought Norway had free trade with the EU?

[mrkint]

And if you really want to bore yourself to tears...

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-oppo ... d-regions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FU. I'm reading european electricity consumption statistics published by the EC as we speak for work. Engrossing stuff.

[Lord Kangana]

I don't think people appreciate that Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU, because being EEA and The EU are not the same thing. Ditto for many of their exports.

That's not true, is it? I thought Norway had free trade with the EU?

Either that or The Telegraph is lying. I don't think its infallible, but...

[Athers]

I did find this bit interesting:

Quite contrary to the rhetoric of "making work pay" this measure does absolutely nothing to improve what work pays. As a matter of fact, making the 9 unemployed people chasing every 1 vacancy that much more desperate, is likely to have a deflationary effect on your wages.

Actually, my view is that that is exactly what should happen at a time of surplus supply in the labour market and is healthier than maintaining the pay levels of those in work, whist leaving so many without work at all, with all the debilitating effects that has.

Nice... Tory tells the truth of what he believes and advocates... A rapid increase in poverty wages.

I wish the leaders of his party would be so forthright then we could have an honest debate.

I don't want to make anybody desperate, or anybody impoverished.

As I have said, I don't fully understand why mass lay offs in banking or in any other industry don't have more of a deflationary effect on wages.

The last thing we need is a situation in which we have cosseted insiders who are well paid, but large numbers who are out of work. That's essentially the situation that has prevailed in Greece.

My humble opinion is that we'd be better off collectively if we had lower wages and less unemployment.

This would also make us more competitive against the countries who are beating us to contracts and exports, and more attractive as a destination for job-creating investment.

Is this honestly the stuff of nasty Tories?

(Athers, help me out, mate.)

Most of this is right out of normal theory (common sense really) although of course the market is imperfect.
As an aside the insiders versus outsiders (the young) situation is especially painful in Spain if anyone wondered why Spain has 50% youth unemployment and is in a mess. Spanish permanent workers got a 4% rise in 2009 for example. Holy inflexibility Batman.

For wage rises, I suspect city banking is a different case as the bottom line impact a banker makes to his firm is more obvious when the negotiations come around.

As for the EU, I read this briefing a month back which later on touches on the Switzerland and Norway options.

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/ ... king-break" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Beefheart]

I don't think people appreciate that Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU, because being EEA and The EU are not the same thing. Ditto for many of their exports.

That's not true, is it? I thought Norway had free trade with the EU?

Either that or The Telegraph is lying. I don't think its infallible, but...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Norway are part of the EEA, so have the economic benefits of being part of the EU without being part of it politically.

[Lord Kangana]

No. the point they made in The Telegraph was that being part of the EEA doesn't give you the same benefits.

And if you think about it, why would it? That would be crazy.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I don't think people appreciate that Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU, because being EEA and The EU are not the same thing. Ditto for many of their exports.

That's not true, is it? I thought Norway had free trade with the EU?

Either that or The Telegraph is lying. I don't think its infallible, but...

Where does the Telegraph say Norwegians pay higher prices for goods from the EU?

[Lord Kangana]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ma ... or-the-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its in one of those two.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itain.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ma ... or-the-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its in one of those two.

Well there is this paragraph in the first one, in an article that is otherwise largely an eloquent explanation of why being out of the EU can be advantageous.

Because Norway is outside the EU, he points out, its processed fish products face high EU import tariffs - 12 per cent in the case of smoked salmon - like the country's agricultural products. In return, French cheese imports to Norway are taxed at 400 per cent.
Oil, gas and manufactured products can be traded freely with the EU, because EEA members submit to all the directives connected with the Single Market.

It seems that food and agriculture may be a special case.

There is nothing along these lines in the second article.

One point of order is that French cheese only becomes more expensive for Norwegians because their sovereign government has decided that that tariff is best for the country. They don't have to put tariffs on anything, no matter how the EU treats its smoked salmon (and fishing is an especially sensitive historical issue). So more expensive imports is not a logical certainty.

You keep asking 'Why would the EU give us access to that market if we weren't part of that club?'. The answer is very simple: reciprocal access to our market, which also important to them. Even I don't think that the main thing the EU gets from our membership is the thrill of a political union and the opportunity to meddle in our affairs.

The second goes on at length about the importance of the 'place at the table'. I ask for the millionth time - what are the examples of our getting our own way and shaping EU law in our favour, against the wishes of the other Member States?

[Lord Kangana]

Surely thats a self defeating argument? They're not on our side when we have some kind of right to a say, you're expecting them to suddenly change tack when we surrender any such right? Come on, thats not even worth another post.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Surely thats a self defeating argument? They're not on our side when we have some kind of right to a say, you're expecting them to suddenly change tack when we surrender any such right? Come on, thats not even worth another post.

No I'm not expecting that. I'm expecting it not to make a blind bit of difference.

Or, at least, I am asking anyone who thinks otherwise to offer some evidence of where our influence has counted.

[Lord Kangana]

I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, though it would be incredibly Machiavellian to do so, because we have exerted a great deal of influence when we haven't treated Europe like a particularly snotty rag. Its well known that Blair was both listened to and liked when in Europe. I think we'd do well to stop sending Political Pygmies like John Redwood, and send someone like Ken Clarke (if we're to be restricted to current government). Its understandable that any negotiating process is going to be fractious if one of the parties acts like a skulking teenager.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, though it would be incredibly Machiavellian to do so, because we have exerted a great deal of influence when we haven't treated Europe like a particularly snotty rag. Its well known that Blair was both listened to and liked when in Europe. I think we'd do well to stop sending Political Pygmies like John Redwood, and send someone like Ken Clarke (if we're to be restricted to current government). Its understandable that any negotiating process is going to be fractious if one of the parties acts like a skulking teenager.

So which issues have we exerted a great deal of influence on?

(And being liked is not the same thing as having influence.)

[Lord Kangana]

I'd say its one of the precursors to doing so.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'd say its one of the precursors to doing so.

I don't think that's how international relations work.

But anyway, when did Blair's being liked in Europe deliver a benefit that we wouldn't otherwise have had?

[Lord Kangana]

And to answer your question, therein lies the rub. I had to speak directly to an MEP, and have a discourse with a European Commissioner, to find out that the authorship of the Payment Service Directive of 2007 was actually a mostly British concern. And this is where the discussion becomes toxic. Most people haven't the first clue where we have and haven't influence. But we do.