The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

It was all very divisive. Plenty who weren't touched particularly negatively by Thatcherism see no wrong in what the bitch did. You can try rationalising it down to "she had a platform and was elected", but so was Hitler.

Her "enemies within" speech, I believe tells you all you need to know about the cow. She picked her fight without any notion of what these folks would do for jobs, given that unemployment was at the highest it's ever been as a result of her policies, and no sense of any sort of "we've taken X away, but you have Y which will fill the gap."

feck her and the ship she sails on.

[mrkint]

Surprised Godwin's Law took this long to be invoked, to be honest.

[Worthy4England]

I was offline earlier, otherwise I'd have saved you being surprised.

[Prufrock]

If you believed that somebody deliberately and maliciously destroyed your livelihood,

I don't think you understand her motives at all, Prufrock. Of course her actions were deliberate, but how can you show malice? The PM has to make hard decisions to achieve a desired end. Her goals were privatization, low inflation, limiting the power of the unions, etc in order to make Britain economically competitive in the world. We may not believe in those goals or the methods employed, but she was the one who was elected and the one who had a platform.

I didn't say I believed it. I know plenty that do though. I'm too young to have been around and to know what it was like, but there are plenty intelligent, rational people I know who quietly hate her with a passion and genuinely believe there was malice in what she did. It tends to go 'no doubt she set out doing what she thought was right, but by the end she was more interested in self-righteousness and point-proving than doing what she ought to have been doing to help the people she governed'. Although with a lot more expletives.

My point is merely that if you were one of those people, and had suffered as a result, and right or not, plenty people suffered, wishing her dead is not a big jump to make. I'd like to think that I personally would never wish harm on anyone, but it's hardly an inhuman reaction.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I know intelligent, rational people who are religious too - people get things wildly wrong in all sorts of ways, especially when egged on by some collective reinforcement or even brainwashing. In my humble opinion, of course.

Anyway, it's impossible to separate the 'action' and 'policy' from the 'point proving' - on both sides, posturing and point proving was part of the battle.

I think it's obvious that she was wrong in not doing things to soften the blow and not to be seen as doing such, but I do wonder whether appearing ruthlessly hard in the moment was the only way to win the battles at that time, and then you get back to discussion about whether the long term aim was th right one.

I never understand why the earlier policy makers who put miners further and further into an artificially subsidised position don't take more of the blame. Obviously the desirable thing would have been for British mining to die a slow, lingering death, with its workers seeping into the jobs market (the sort of readjustment that is automatic in a market economy), rather than through the sudden severity which became more and more unavoidable

[Montreal Wanderer]

I know intelligent, rational people who are religious too - people get things wildly wrong in all sorts of ways, especially when egged on by some collective reinforcement or even brainwashing. In my humble opinion, of course.

Anyway, it's impossible to separate the 'action' and 'policy' from the 'point proving' - on both sides, posturing and point proving was part of the battle.

I think it's obvious that she was wrong in not doing things to soften the blow and not to be seen as doing such, but I do wonder whether appearing ruthlessly hard in the moment was the only way to win the battles at that time, and then you get back to discussion about whether the long term aim was th right one.

I never understand why the earlier policy makers who put miners further and further into an artificially subsidised position don't take more of the blame. Obviously the desirable thing would have been for British mining to die a slow, lingering death, with its workers seeping into the jobs market (the sort of readjustment that is automatic in a market economy), rather than the through the sudden severity which became more and more unavoidable

While this is clearly preferable was it possible or practical? It did seem to me there was a union willing to hold the country hostage and one not willing to compromise in the phasing out you suggest. Still, as noted I saw these things at a distance....

[Montreal Wanderer]

It was all very divisive. Plenty who weren't touched particularly negatively by Thatcherism see no wrong in what the bitch did. You can try rationalising it down to "she had a platform and was elected", but so was Hitler.

Her "enemies within" speech, I believe tells you all you need to know about the cow. She picked her fight without any notion of what these folks would do for jobs, given that unemployment was at the highest it's ever been as a result of her policies, and no sense of any sort of "we've taken X away, but you have Y which will fill the gap."

feck her and the ship she sails on.

To the extent Hitler followed his program which was aimed at economic recovery after the massive inflation of Weimar, he did fulfill his election promises of 1932. The policies and actions for which we view him with abhorrence came after he had become a dictator and were never part of an election platform. There may be valid comparisons between the objectives of national socialism on the one hand and Thatcherism and/or Reaganomics on the the other. However, to compare Thatcher and her methods with Hitler and his is simply absurd in my view.

[BWFC_Insane]

It was all very divisive. Plenty who weren't touched particularly negatively by Thatcherism see no wrong in what the bitch did. You can try rationalising it down to "she had a platform and was elected", but so was Hitler.

Her "enemies within" speech, I believe tells you all you need to know about the cow. She picked her fight without any notion of what these folks would do for jobs, given that unemployment was at the highest it's ever been as a result of her policies, and no sense of any sort of "we've taken X away, but you have Y which will fill the gap."

feck her and the ship she sails on.

To the extent Hitler followed his program which was aimed at economic recovery after the massive inflation of Weimar, he did fulfill his election promises of 1932. The policies and actions for which we view him with abhorrence came after he had become a dictator and were never part of an election platform. There may be valid comparisons between the objectives of national socialism on the one hand and Thatcherism and/or Reaganomics on the the other. However, to compare Thatcher and her methods with Hitler and his is simply absurd in my view.

But he's not comparing them though. He's applying logic used to "defend" Thatcher's policies to the situation when Hitler was "elected".

I think it's a fair argument.

Being elected doesn't give you the right to plow through vast swathes of a country with an industrial wrecking ball destroying the lives of hundreds of thousands of people as you go. And if you do that, I don't think you can complain too much if said people and their families and descendants think pretty fecking badly of you.

Anyhow, WilliamtheWhite has hit exactly the right tone for me. Don't wish anyone dead, but when she goes, I probably will raise a glass.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

As I said in the Winner thread, hadn't seen it had moved over to here:

Ok. I know this is a thread about Michael Winner but I have to at least answer some of the criticism I got earlier.
1 - I only brought up Thatcher because somebody else brought up the death list, and then I only said no.29 on the list. I wasn't trying to insert a debate about her into anything (far fecking from it).
2 - I think there is a difference between celebrating on the death of some tw*t and wishing that tw*t dead: I'm not wishing her dead, but I will celebrate when she no longer pollutes the planet.
3 - You can threaten to take my vote away from me in jest, but that's the sort of shit she'd have probably come out with if she'd ve clung onto power any longer.
4 - I hate her for what she did to my family and to communities throughout the north of Britain, I detest her for the poll tax, for the destruction of our industrial base (mining, shipping, docks, steel), for the cynical lies ["Labour isn't Working" - and then deliberately as a matter of policy overseeing the greatest unemployment rate since the Depression] and her sheer fecking arrogance ["There is No such thing as Society" - c*nt]. I'll hate her till the day I die, and by the looks of things, as I said, she'll probably outlive me, the bitch.

[Bruce Rioja]

I don't wish for the death of human beings, even those as vile as Thatcher.

But I'll certainly not shed a tear... And I'll certainly be glad she's gone... And I may even raise a glass... Thinking of my father made redundant three times in his 50s... Of living in the 'rust belt' of the Black Country, the roofless giant foundries like rotting monuments to broken lives ensnared in poverty, and of the vileness of the Bollinger crew of the City, wallowing in money they'd barely toiled to earn, and setting the scene for the current disaster now afflicting us...

She was a rotten bastard, if there was a hell she'd be roasting...

Those economically nonviable foundries? Those ones? Yeah, what a rotten bastard!

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't wish for the death of human beings, even those as vile as Thatcher.

But I'll certainly not shed a tear... And I'll certainly be glad she's gone... And I may even raise a glass... Thinking of my father made redundant three times in his 50s... Of living in the 'rust belt' of the Black Country, the roofless giant foundries like rotting monuments to broken lives ensnared in poverty, and of the vileness of the Bollinger crew of the City, wallowing in money they'd barely toiled to earn, and setting the scene for the current disaster now afflicting us...

She was a rotten bastard, if there was a hell she'd be roasting...

Those economically nonviable foundries? Those ones? Yeah, what a rotten bastard!

Exactly. Because, believe it or not there are things in life, way way way more important than money...........

[Bruce Rioja]

I don't wish for the death of human beings, even those as vile as Thatcher.

But I'll certainly not shed a tear... And I'll certainly be glad she's gone... And I may even raise a glass... Thinking of my father made redundant three times in his 50s... Of living in the 'rust belt' of the Black Country, the roofless giant foundries like rotting monuments to broken lives ensnared in poverty, and of the vileness of the Bollinger crew of the City, wallowing in money they'd barely toiled to earn, and setting the scene for the current disaster now afflicting us...

She was a rotten bastard, if there was a hell she'd be roasting...

Those economically nonviable foundries? Those ones? Yeah, what a rotten bastard!

Exactly. Because, believe it or not there are things in life, way way way more important than money...........

So who'd fund them? You? Go on............

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't wish for the death of human beings, even those as vile as Thatcher.

But I'll certainly not shed a tear... And I'll certainly be glad she's gone... And I may even raise a glass... Thinking of my father made redundant three times in his 50s... Of living in the 'rust belt' of the Black Country, the roofless giant foundries like rotting monuments to broken lives ensnared in poverty, and of the vileness of the Bollinger crew of the City, wallowing in money they'd barely toiled to earn, and setting the scene for the current disaster now afflicting us...

She was a rotten bastard, if there was a hell she'd be roasting...

Those economically nonviable foundries? Those ones? Yeah, what a rotten bastard!

Exactly. Because, believe it or not there are things in life, way way way more important than money...........

So who'd fund them? You? Go on............

And how economically viable, say, was the Falklands war?

[CrazyHorse]

Oh dear god. Using the Falklands as a reason to not close the foundries. Brilliant.

[BWFC_Insane]

Oh dear god. Using the Falklands as a reason to not close the foundries. Brilliant.

That wasn't the point was it?

[Bruce Rioja]

I don't wish for the death of human beings, even those as vile as Thatcher.

But I'll certainly not shed a tear... And I'll certainly be glad she's gone... And I may even raise a glass... Thinking of my father made redundant three times in his 50s... Of living in the 'rust belt' of the Black Country, the roofless giant foundries like rotting monuments to broken lives ensnared in poverty, and of the vileness of the Bollinger crew of the City, wallowing in money they'd barely toiled to earn, and setting the scene for the current disaster now afflicting us...

She was a rotten bastard, if there was a hell she'd be roasting...

Those economically nonviable foundries? Those ones? Yeah, what a rotten bastard!

Exactly. Because, believe it or not there are things in life, way way way more important than money...........

So who'd fund them? You? Go on............

And how economically viable, say, was the Falklands war?

I've read some utter 4uckwittedness on here, but dear me. Are you really using Argentina's invasion of sovereign territory as a reason to prop up an industrial busted flush? Are you?

[Bruce Rioja]

Oh dear god. Using the Falklands as a reason to not close the foundries. Brilliant.

That wasn't the point was it?

Well what was your point then? I for one would love to hear it, being as it was you that made exactly that comparison.

[BWFC_Insane]

Oh dear god. Using the Falklands as a reason to not close the foundries. Brilliant.

That wasn't the point was it?

Well what was your point then? I for one would love to hear it, being as it was you that made exactly that comparison.

My point was that predictably you want to use the "economically viable" argument when it suits.

I wasn't suggesting leaving foundries open indefinitely. But by simply pillaging the industrial and mining jobs that the majority of northern working classes occupied without providing any sort of alternative or buffer, what she effectively did was destroy large swathes of communities across Northern Britain, harming people's lives for generations to come. We are in fact now paying the price for that, the society we have is what that policy created.

And that destruction was against a backdrop of "loadsamoney" blaggers getting rich for feck all in the capital. Again we're paying the price for that now and some.

It may have been "economically better". But I don't want to live in a world where that is ALWAYS the bottom line. And we don't. Otherwise we'd have left the Falklands to the Argentinians if they wanted them so badly.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I know intelligent, rational people who are religious too - people get things wildly wrong in all sorts of ways, especially when egged on by some collective reinforcement or even brainwashing. In my humble opinion, of course.

Anyway, it's impossible to separate the 'action' and 'policy' from the 'point proving' - on both sides, posturing and point proving was part of the battle.

I think it's obvious that she was wrong in not doing things to soften the blow and not to be seen as doing such, but I do wonder whether appearing ruthlessly hard in the moment was the only way to win the battles at that time, and then you get back to discussion about whether the long term aim was th right one.

I never understand why the earlier policy makers who put miners further and further into an artificially subsidised position don't take more of the blame. Obviously the desirable thing would have been for British mining to die a slow, lingering death, with its workers seeping into the jobs market (the sort of readjustment that is automatic in a market economy), rather than through the sudden severity which became more and more unavoidable

While this is clearly preferable was it possible or practical? It did seem to me there was a union willing to hold the country hostage and one not willing to compromise in the phasing out you suggest. Still, as noted I saw these things at a distance....

Well I didn't see them at all and the distance of time probably makes things even hazier than the distance to Canada.

I am not saying it was possible or practical - just desirable. As I say, anyone who was responsible for prolonging a situation in which communities were stranded in jobs that were not viable would appear to me to deserve some of the blame, but it is very rarely shared around very much as far I as I can tell. I'm interested in apportioning some blame to anybody who made it less possible or less practical.

It should be a cast of thousands, but instead Thatcher is the hate figure and poster girl for the harsh realities of the modern world.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21157822" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bloody hell.