Dougie

[thebish]

Can they not both have done a pretty good job? Does one have to be shite and the other the second coming?

yes - the forum has always been false dichotomy central!

[gizmothevoomer]

Time to introduce a bit of perspective into the Dougie love-in.

I've read that he 'took us from nowhere to 6th'. He actually spent three months taking us from 17th to 20th, via several weeks when we were becalmed in 16th spot. He then took us back up to a final position of 7th, which is effectively 'nowhere', since we can't actually be promoted from that position. Given that there were only a handful of points between the bottom three and the top six for most of the season, this isn't as actually as difficult as it might have been in previous seasons.

He was brought in to win promotion at a club with a wage bill in the top three in the league. He failed. He managed an average of 1.6 ppg over the course of his 33 games in charge, which would have been enough to finish 5th over the course of the season, in a piss-poor league. Even if you add the points he accumulated at Palace to those he won at Bolton, it would still wouldn't have been enough to finish higher than 5th. Mick McCarthy took exactly the same number of points from the same number of games this season with a far worse team.

We didn't get going until February... three months after he took over. We took one point from games against Barnsley, Peterborough and Sheffield Wednesday, teams which were still in danger of going down yesterday. We won three away games all season on his watch. The Championship isn't that complicated. He needs to put the coaching manual down and employ some common sense. He dropped a major bollock with his team selection against Blackpool, added to the one he dropped against Leicester.

It won't be as easy next season because the league can't possibly be as bad as it was this season. Let's hope that Dougie can up his game next season because 1.6ppg won't be anywhere near enough to win promotion. We might just have blown our best chance.

You contradict yourself in stating that Bolton only took 1 point from Barnsley, Peterborough and Sheffield Wednesday, then state how close the Championship was this year only 14 Pts between sixth place and relegation showing every game is tough in this division. You also forget to mention that after Febuary we beat both Peterborough and Barnsley in Febuary and March, under Dougie having already already beaten Wednesday under Owen Coyle.

You are correct that the Championship next year will be difficult to get out of 15 teams will have Premiership experience, 9 of those in the last three years showing that every game in this division is tough. Dougie has turned around a decline which would in all probability seen us in a similar position to Wolves and Blackburn had the board not acted in removing Owen Coyle. That decline took time to turn around, I am confident that given a full summer to build on one of the better squads in the division.

It is easy for you to be negative in hindsight, if you take Dougies 1.88 pts/game from Febuary over a season then we would have 96 points enough to win the division at a canter, 1.6 pts/game gives us 76 pts enough for the play offs in any season. Dougie doesn't need to up his game, he needs support from fans which he has.

I hope this clarifies you somewhat biased perspective.

Nothing to say BL3?

[officer_dibble]

Dont be worried he doesnt post frequentley. He'll be back next time we lose.

[gizmothevoomer]

Dont be worried he doesnt post frequentley. He'll be back next time we lose.

I know just irritates me,when someone has a go totally unjustified particularly when the stats and examples quoted are so misleading.

[BL3]

Not as 'misleading' as pretending that the season started in February...

[thebish]

Not as 'misleading' as pretending that the season started in February...

I don't think anyone has quite done that - what they have said is that Coyle left behind such an omnishambles that they are prepared to understand that instant results were a very tall order indeed - so - they were prepared to be patient to see what happened and reserve judgement...

from about february it has seemed that there has been a turnaround - and people are prepared to celebrate that... it might seem odd - but people are happy about our recent form..

behind that - a careful reading of the various posts suggests that the dominant view embraces the following points:

1. Dougie inherited an omnishambles
2. it took him some time to make headway
3. eventually he did and we very nearly surprised ourselves by reaching the playoffs
4. some of the success has looked a bit thin - we have ridden our luck
5. the fact that we nearly reached the playoffs was also to do with some very favourable results from other teams
6. we have some obvious flaws in the team that need to be addressed
7. SO - Dougie has done more than enough to give him the time he needs
8. but ultimately the jury is still out - and next season, without the excuse of working with someone else's team and arriving in the middle of a shambolic crisis, will be a much better test as to whether he is the man for the job...
9. on his performance so far, it seems most forum members are optimistic that he might be.


now... your oft-repeated charge that he has failed despite having the highest wage bill in the division is interesting - but ultimately a bit blunt. You might say that generally a high wage bill will indicate a good squad - that kinda makes sense intuitively... where it goes wrong a bit is if those wages were lavished on players by a manager who didn't seem to have that good an eye for the kind of player we needed... which, many people believe, was the case...

Dougies transfer record at Bolton has been mixed - and mostly loanees... Dawson and Medo look like the acquisitions of someone with a good eye... Butterfield(s) and Hall - less so...

that's why people are holding off making a firm and fast judgement until we have enough data to go on... the summer window will be a significant addition to that data..

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

[plymouth wanderer]

Not as 'misleading' as pretending that the season started in February...

I don't think anyone has quite done that - what they have said is that Coyle left behind such an omnishambles that they are prepared to understand that instant results were a very tall order indeed - so - they were prepared to be patient to see what happened and reserve judgement...

from about february it has seemed that there has been a turnaround - and people are prepared to celebrate that... it might seem odd - but people are happy about our recent form..

behind that - a careful reading of the various posts suggests that the dominant view embraces the following points:

1. Dougie inherited an omnishambles
2. it took him some time to make headway
3. eventually he did and we very nearly surprised ourselves by reaching the playoffs
4. some of the success has looked a bit thin - we have ridden our luck
5. the fact that we nearly reached the playoffs was also to do with some very favourable results from other teams
6. we have some obvious flaws in the team that need to be addressed
7. SO - Dougie has done more than enough to give him the time he needs
8. but ultimately the jury is still out - and next season, without the excuse of working with someone else's team and arriving in the middle of a shambolic crisis, will be a much better test as to whether he is the man for the job...
9. on his performance so far, it seems most forum members are optimistic that he might be.


now... your oft-repeated charge that he has failed despite having the highest wage bill in the division is interesting - but ultimately a bit blunt. You might say that generally a high wage bill will indicate a good squad - that kinda makes sense intuitively... where it goes wrong a bit is if those wages were lavished on players by a manager who didn't seem to have that good an eye for the kind of player we needed... which, many people believe, was the case...

Dougies transfer record at Bolton has been mixed - and mostly loanees... Dawson and Medo look like the acquisitions of someone with a good eye... Butterfield(s) and Hall - less so...

that's why people are holding off making a firm and fast judgement until we have enough data to go on... the summer window will be a significant addition to that data..

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

Spot on Bish

Although I feel you are wasting your time.

[popeyedoyle]

Not as 'misleading' as pretending that the season started in February...

I don't think anyone has quite done that - what they have said is that Coyle left behind such an omnishambles that they are prepared to understand that instant results were a very tall order indeed - so - they were prepared to be patient to see what happened and reserve judgement...

from about february it has seemed that there has been a turnaround - and people are prepared to celebrate that... it might seem odd - but people are happy about our recent form..

behind that - a careful reading of the various posts suggests that the dominant view embraces the following points:

1. Dougie inherited an omnishambles
2. it took him some time to make headway
3. eventually he did and we very nearly surprised ourselves by reaching the playoffs
4. some of the success has looked a bit thin - we have ridden our luck
5. the fact that we nearly reached the playoffs was also to do with some very favourable results from other teams
6. we have some obvious flaws in the team that need to be addressed
7. SO - Dougie has done more than enough to give him the time he needs
8. but ultimately the jury is still out - and next season, without the excuse of working with someone else's team and arriving in the middle of a shambolic crisis, will be a much better test as to whether he is the man for the job...
9. on his performance so far, it seems most forum members are optimistic that he might be.


now... your oft-repeated charge that he has failed despite having the highest wage bill in the division is interesting - but ultimately a bit blunt. You might say that generally a high wage bill will indicate a good squad - that kinda makes sense intuitively... where it goes wrong a bit is if those wages were lavished on players by a manager who didn't seem to have that good an eye for the kind of player we needed... which, many people believe, was the case...

Dougies transfer record at Bolton has been mixed - and mostly loanees... Dawson and Medo look like the acquisitions of someone with a good eye... Butterfield(s) and Hall - less so...

that's why people are holding off making a firm and fast judgement until we have enough data to go on... the summer window will be a significant addition to that data..

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

Spot on Bish

Although I feel you are wasting your time.

This is why I joined this forum because it has well thought out and lucid thoughts by posters who seem to have a clue, unlike some boards that I read.

[Porrohman]

Stop arse licking.

[BL3]

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

In the 'real world' you either win promotion or you don't. There are no consolation prizes.

[BWFC_Insane]

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

In the 'real world' you either win promotion or you don't. There are no consolation prizes.

In the real world you were completely and utterly and horribly wrong about Coyle. So I think there is a really quite decent chance that you will prove to be as equally wrong about this.

So I'm quite happy about that really.

[thebish]

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

In the 'real world' you either win promotion or you don't. There are no consolation prizes.

so - in your version of the real world you sack every manager who doesn't achieve promotion (or the top 4 in the premiership?)

how exactly does this real world of yours work? I'm interested....

[BL3]

well ahead of 'Barnsley's new manager', whatshisname.

'whatshisname' managed 1.55ppg in his time in charge of Barnsley. Only 0.05ppg less than Dougie managed with all the resources at his disposal...

[thebish]

well ahead of 'Barnsley's new manager', whatshisname.

'whatshisname' managed 1.55ppg in his time in charge of Barnsley. Only 0.05ppg less than Dougie managed with all the resources at his disposal...

did they get promoted?? after all - no consolation prizes... likewise - Pisswich... no consolation prizes - therefore a failure??

[BL3]

well ahead of 'Barnsley's new manager', whatshisname.

'whatshisname' managed 1.55ppg in his time in charge of Barnsley. Only 0.05ppg less than Dougie managed with all the resources at his disposal...

did they get promoted?? after all - no consolation prizes... likewise - Pisswich... no consolation prizes - therefore a failure??

Their goal was to stay up. They both achieved that goal.

Barnsley appointed Flitcroft after 25 games when they were bottom of the table and 4 points adrift of safety.

Ipswich appointed McCarthy after 13 games when they were bottom of the table and 7 points adrift of safety.

'Pisswich' also beat us home and away.

[thebish]

well ahead of 'Barnsley's new manager', whatshisname.

'whatshisname' managed 1.55ppg in his time in charge of Barnsley. Only 0.05ppg less than Dougie managed with all the resources at his disposal...

did they get promoted?? after all - no consolation prizes... likewise - Pisswich... no consolation prizes - therefore a failure??

Their goal was to stay up. They both achieved that goal.

Barnsley appointed Flitcroft after 25 games when they were bottom of the table and 4 points adrift of safety.

Ipswich appointed McCarthy after 13 games when they were bottom of the table and 7 points adrift of safety.

'Pisswich' also beat us home and away.

nahhh - not having it... someone wise once said... "In the 'real world' you either win promotion or you don't. There are no consolation prizes."

[Prufrock]

You're wage bill is going to be high when the last mon left you saddled with Zat Knight on a two-year contract on somewhere near 20K pw, Ricketts on similar, and Andrew on a three-year 15K pw. Now there's at least two of us I'd have in the squad, but not on that money!

[Martin_Cruise]

now - it seems to be that this is a sane and balanced way to approach the discussion... it might not be exciting - like a "crap or ace" argument, but it has the advantage that it is situated in the real world...

In the 'real world' you either win promotion or you don't. There are no consolation prizes.

so - in your version of the real world you sack every manager who doesn't achieve promotion (or the top 4 in the premiership?)

how exactly does this real world of yours work? I'm interested....

In my real world the club would have kept Allardyce.

And when they had the opportunity to bring Allardyce back, as Gartside said they did, they should have brought him back.

At no point should anybody with as mediocre CVs as Lee, Megson or Freedman have been appointed.

We go into next season in the 2nd tier with one of the biggest wage bills, but several clubs in the 2nd tier have a manager with a better CV.Freedman has had 2 seasons in management and finished 17th and 7th in the 2nd tier.I don't understand why he's here.Failing against Blackpool when it came to the crunch doesn't help me understand any better.The guy's a novice who should still be learning the trade at Palace .We are paying a salary attractive enough to have appointed proven success at this level.

[SmokinFrazier]

7. SO - Dougie has done more than enough to give him the time he needs
8. but ultimately the jury is still out - and next season, without the excuse of working with someone else's team and arriving in the middle of a shambolic crisis, will be a much better test as to whether he is the man for the job...
9. on his performance so far, it seems most forum members are optimistic that he might be.

I agree with most of what you said but rather than quote it all, I thought I'd just pick up on this which I think is spot on. Freedman came into the club at a tough time but managed to raise the morale of the players and fans through hard work, and after that, we saw a change in results. That deserves a lot of praise, I think, because we were looking like we could mentally collapse in the same way Wolves have done, so I praise Freedman for turning it around and giving us a platform for promotion next year. That said, I think there's a lot to work on for him as a manager. I've been very disappointed with our defensive play at times and going forward, we created so few chances and looked really disorganised. For a team who almost got into the play-offs, I don't think there is more than a handful of games under Freedman where you'd say "this team look like a quality bunch". To say we rode our luck would be an understatement but I am confident we'll improve. I hope to see a much better team next year, especially going forward.

For me, the squad still underperformed under Dougie and I think the players are capable of more than they showed, even during our best run, but I also go along with the idea that Freedman needs to readjust a few things. We could probably do with a few new players, ones who maybe lack the technical ability but are more willing to put the effort in, like Pratley has been. Even though we've got a quality squad, Freedman hasn't had the best luck with injuries either, so it'll be interesting to see what he can get out of our squad when we aren't missing Wheater, Holden, Mark Davies etc..

Overall, I'd probably give Freedman a 6 or 7/10 because whilst we improved a lot under him, I think some of the praise he's been given has been over the top and there's still a long, long way to go before we're the finished article. He's not a flawless manager, as he proved with the switches in formation which cost us a play-off spot, but there's enough there to believe he's worth sticking with. I'm not as optimistic as others are about next season but I'm intrigued to see how we'll change and whether we improve or not.

[a1]

fecking dougiecool'll have us walking it next year without coyle's results stinking up the place.