The Championship 2013/14

[BWFC_Insane]

But in the speculative and hypothetical choice of having to sell Eagles or Lee, which would you pick? I can't imagine anyone would rather sell our top scorer and top chance creater. Perhaps you would?

I mean there is a difference between saying you'd rather keep Lee than sell him, and saying "In a choice I prefer Lee to Eagles".

i am adding speculation to your existing specualtion - and said that if we had to make a decision today to sell one or the other - then I can think of good reasons to sell Eagles... I know you have insisted that it is a no-brainer - but somewyere in my head (given we are in a speculative world) I can see reasons... they are as follows..

1. we'd get a whole load more money for Eagles - and we all trust Dougie to spend it wisely, don't we??
2. Eagles is the one more likely to have his head turned - i think he is more susceptible to that than Lee - so if we had to decide today and we chose to sell Lee - there'd be the risk of losing both when Eagles gets his head turned and Dougie decides he only wants players who are 100% committed to the club. (I know you believe Eagles when he says he loves Bolton and it is his dream to carry on playing for us in the championship - but I am not as cast-iron sure about that as you seem to be..)

so - if you insist we have to sell one today - which seems to be your scenario - then in my opinion - there ARE reasons to sell Eagles.

of course - in the real world - there doesn't appear to such a choice to be made - unless you know summat I don't? if not - then it's a bit like the interesting but ultimately pointless argument about whether you'd rather lose a leg or an arm...

I'd hope Dougie has the sense - and the nous - and the backing from the club to keep both of them.

why do you want to keep Lee if you think he is ineffective and expensive?

Good points re. Eagles. Not sure how much we'd get for him as he is older though you'd have to hope only a considerable amount would prompt the club to sell him at this stage.

Like you I hope Lee will come good and think he will benefit from a Mark Davies type in midfield to play the sort of clever football his movement requires. I think he's been broadly ineffective this season, partly through his own fault and partly not. I've said before, I don't think this division suits him, he seems to thrive round better players (where perhaps Eagles thrives being THE BETTER player in a side) and at times it's been too physical for him.

So I am hoping he'll adjust.

Guess we'll see what happens.

[Beefheart]

I see what you're saying, but I think it's partly down to the perception of an outsider. Though we might not see much difference between Eagles and a post-leg break Lee, Eagles is essentially an inconsistent underachiever, Lee is the Korean David Beckham who hasn't yet found his pre-injury form but is still a few years younger than Eagles and will be seen as having the greater potential.

[thebish]

'1. we'd get a whole load more money for Eagles - and we all trust Dougie to spend it wisely, don't we??'

Not sure this is the case. Eagles has a year left on his contract, Lee has longer so that would effect any likely transfer fees for either.

'2. Eagles is the one more likely to have his head turned - I think he is more susceptible to that than Lee - '

Again, not so sure this is true. I think Eagles is happier to be a big fish in a small pond in a championship team, Lee is a Korean super star with an International football career to consider which isn't to be helped playing in the 2nd tier.

I'd rather keep them both though.

so would I!

Eagles just seems flakier to me - entirely speculation as i have never met him and don't know him... as for only having a year left... it just depends who wants him, surely? goal-scoring/chance-creating midfielders often command a premium (esp. if you could get spurs or liverpool interested!!) and given that folk reckon Lee has been disappointing - i don't see anyone would bust a gut to prize him away...

But then again, as good as Eagles is on his day, he's nowhere near consistent enough for an established PL team to come in for him, at least in my opinion. I reckon we'll keep both, Lee seems to appreciate the dedication we had through his injury and Eagles just seems to love the club (his goal against Blackburn anyone?). Plus this is Eagles' sort of level of play.

so do I... (or at least, I hope we do...)

it'll be interesting to see how Dougie makes room for his new DNA-pool, though... a big clearout has often been hinted at - but that is easier said than done if players under contract don't want to go...

[thebish]

I see what you're saying, but I think it's partly down to the perception of an outsider. Though we might not see much difference between Eagles and a post-leg break Lee, Eagles is essentially an inconsistent underachiever, Lee is the Korean David Beckham who hasn't yet found his pre-injury form but is still a few years younger than Eagles and will be seen as having the greater potential.

i can see that - but until he does display that pre-leg-break form - then he's a gamble...

[Whookam]

What Lee displayed before his leg break, well and before his 2nd half season break of 2010/2011, was potential. His tangible contribution was alright, nothing special, but he did show the potential to change that for the better. As it is now he's entering what should be his peak but he's not shining in a lower division so if someone wants him it's a gamble and they will not want to pay much. I suspect Lee will be here come September (contrary to my 'he'll be gone by August' prediction last year ).

I suspect Eagles is too old for anyone to pay any half decent money for.

[boltonboris]

I like the way that everyones been scrutinising the books and are able to put a particular price on our players' heads.

We're fans. Why can't we just want to watch the best players we have?

[BWFC_Insane]

I like the way that everyones been scrutinising the books and are able to put a particular price on our players' heads.

We're fans. Why can't we just want to watch the best players we have?

I take your point but what I want is a winning team. Thats the only thing that matters.

For example, Gudjohnsen was a great player to watch. But I preferred the season after without him to the two before with him.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I like the way that everyones been scrutinising the books and are able to put a particular price on our players' heads.

We're fans. Why can't we just want to watch the best players we have?

I take your point but what I want is a winning team. Thats the only thing that matters.

For example, Gudjohnsen was a great player to watch. But I preferred the season after without him to the two before with him.

It isn't the only thing that matters to me. If it were I'd be glory hunting with the rest of them...

[BWFC_Insane]

I like the way that everyones been scrutinising the books and are able to put a particular price on our players' heads.

We're fans. Why can't we just want to watch the best players we have?

I take your point but what I want is a winning team. Thats the only thing that matters.

For example, Gudjohnsen was a great player to watch. But I preferred the season after without him to the two before with him.

It isn't the only thing that matters to me. If it were I'd be glory hunting with the rest of them...

Hmm it's a broader point. I support Bolton because it's in the blood. But I want to see us win. I mean usually a winning team is the best to watch or the most enjoyable.

Especially now. I mean when we were top 8 in the premiership there was an argument about the football.

Right now I think as fans we're pretty starved of success. Of having something tangible at the end of a season to cheer. Thats what we need to do as a priority IMO, whether it be by pretty means or not......

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I like the way that everyones been scrutinising the books and are able to put a particular price on our players' heads.

We're fans. Why can't we just want to watch the best players we have?

I take your point but what I want is a winning team. Thats the only thing that matters.

For example, Gudjohnsen was a great player to watch. But I preferred the season after without him to the two before with him.

It isn't the only thing that matters to me. If it were I'd be glory hunting with the rest of them...

Hmm it's a broader point. I support Bolton because it's in the blood. But I want to see us win. I mean usually a winning team is the best to watch or the most enjoyable.

Especially now. I mean when we were top 8 in the premiership there was an argument about the football.

Right now I think as fans we're pretty starved of success. Of having something tangible at the end of a season to cheer. Thats what we need to do as a priority IMO, whether it be by pretty means or not......

Wasn't having a dig. Winning can make it more enjoyable and it validates in part the reason we all invest so much in it. That said, it is more about it being a part of us and us all belonging to something. It is the belonging, the identity and the lifelong commitment that matters far more than anything else to me. Winning, losing, players, managers and owners come and go. They all mean something at the time, but the enduring thing, the thing that binds us all and the thing that matters is so much more than that. 99% of Man Utd fans will never understand it. Winning and losing is the only thing they have, that and a passing interest if the latter becomes more common than the former.

All I ask is that we be the best we can be and retain who we are. If that is Championship, Premiership or Blue Square so be it.

[thebish]

it's just hyperbole..

winning clearly isn't the only thing that matters - else we're all lunatics. *


*(which might, in fact, be the case!)

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Dougie says it all here....

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/wa ... s/10401291._/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Just as an aside, this article again mentions the "£120m promotion" like that's a net gain, which it inevitably isn't, as The Independent explained on Saturday:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 03591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Back to Bolton:
Money in football isn't as simple as people often make it seem. If you make it clear you want to sell a player, his value drops. If you get money in, the price of your targets rises. And all transfers (at this level) involve various percentage-sapping agents and fees. We can't simply shove Lee in the window of Bolton Central with a bright orange sticker saying "£5m" then buy a player (or two, or three) with that perceived market value.

There are a few Bolton players I'd like to see replaced, and I suspect Freedman would too, but if they're on long contracts then you're in a bind: yes, their value goes up, but that narrows the market to sell to. For instance, last July the club gave Zat Knight a two-year contract. (Fill in your anguished scribblings on the reverse side of this forum post, using extra sheets if necessary.) Who's going to buy him out of that?

Here's the last contract-expiry list I did, after the January window. It needs updating - some of the younger lads have had extensions - so corrections and citations are welcome.

[boltonboris]

So we want to win because that's all that matters and we want to see winning football.. But to achieve this, we need to sell our good players?

I'm struggling...

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

So we want to win because that's all that matters and we want to see winning football.. But to achieve this, we need to sell our good players?

I'm struggling...

For the record, I'm not an advocate of selling our best players. Just thought I'd say that as I didn't really make it clear up yonder.

[BWFC_Insane]

So we want to win because that's all that matters and we want to see winning football.. But to achieve this, we need to sell our good players?

I'm struggling...

Well one might argue that this group of players have failed to produce the goods over three years and it's time for a change.

Then of course the argument is over who are "good players" are.

Genuinely there are few in this squad that I'd be sorry to see leave. Most have let us down for significant periods/failed to perform/gone missing at crucial times.

Personally I think Lee for example has got away with a lot this season. And I'd ask is he "really that good"?

[boltonboris]

It wasn't aimed at you fella..

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It wasn't aimed at you fella..

Thought not (assuming THAT was aimed at me!) but likesay, just to be clear.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

one might argue that this group of players have failed to produce the goods over three years and it's time for a change. Then of course the argument is over who are "good players" are. Genuinely there are few in this squad that I'd be sorry to see leave. Most have let us down for significant periods/failed to perform/gone missing at crucial times. Personally I think Lee for example has got away with a lot this season. And I'd ask is he "really that good"?

OK mate, who would you look to move on? Ignoring (for these purposes) the logistics I noted above, and therefore assuming we got 'market rate' etc, who would you like to keep and who would you get shut of? This is not asked with anger, or bear-trap, but with curiosity.

[boltonboris]

So we want to win because that's all that matters and we want to see winning football.. But to achieve this, we need to sell our good players?

I'm struggling...

Well one might argue that this group of players have failed to produce the goods over three years and it's time for a change.

Then of course the argument is over who are "good players" are.

Genuinely there are few in this squad that I'd be sorry to see leave. Most have let us down for significant periods/failed to perform/gone missing at crucial times.

Personally I think Lee for example has got away with a lot this season. And I'd ask is he "really that good"?

Well, he's hardly been shite.. Chipped in with a few goals and has looked decent for the most part since Dougie came in.

We're forgetting that we had a footballing retard in charge since October and it took a while for the new man to shake off the unbelievable shitness in every department he'd left us with.

Let Dougie keep our good players.. It's a different regime now and a different mentality. He'll get more out of having a squad of good players than Coyle ever could.

I thinks it's unfair to say "we were shite under Coyle, so let's fvck 'em all off"

[Beefheart]

I don't think a clear out or any sort of wholesale changes are needed, we'll obviously need to replace anyone who does leave and there's a couple of positions that need strengthening but I think we've got a good core of players and trust Dougie to fill in the gaps.