The Politics Thread

[William the White]

I am not an anarchist (though i once was), but remain very attracted to ideas of freedom, equality and collective ownership and management of production.

So what is it that you used to believe in but now don't?

Anarchy at a guess...

It seems to me that that term has a lot of connotations but is hard to pin down and define... which is why I was hoping William might explain what it is he used to believe in that made him and anarchist, but now doesn't.

You are correct that there are a variety of ideas that lay claim to 'Anarchism', from extreme individualism to the comunismo libertario of the Spanish CNT-FAI. I was attracted by the collectivist ideas of the Russian anarchist, Bakunin (Marx's major rival in the First International Workers Association), further developed by his compatriot Kropotkin (described by Oscar Wilde in his inspired The Soul of Man under Socialism) - whose doctrine was known as anarcho -communism. I was also influenced by the anarcho-syndicalism of the late 19th and early 20th centuries when anarchists were founders of the great militant trade unions of France, Italy, Spain, and much of Latin America. I despised the tyranny of the soviet union, that i viewed as oppressive state capitalism where the CP formed a bureaucratic ruling class no more representative of the workers than any other.

The basic ideas were the abolition of private property and capitalism, its replacement by free confederations of workers who would own the land and all forms of industry collectively. There would be no need for government or for the state, since the state was simply the mechanism for class rule, and with the abolition of classes it would be possible to abolish the state, and the oppressive structures it imposes on the people - armies, prisons, police, structures that are only necessary to protect private property, which has been abolished so no need for them... Bakunin expresses the central idea thus: We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

It was a tremendous idealistic vision that I bought into pretty completely for six or seven years in my teens and early 20s.

I departed to join dissident Marxist groupings, and, eventually, made my way back into the Labour Party, which I left pretty soon after Blair became the leader. I continue to define myself as a libertarian socialist.

[Prufrock]

Nope. In short. Happy to have helped .

I'd be surprised if you can get two of them to agree on what it means, but generally they're against set ruling structures. Not necessarily a free for all, but away from, for example, a two party political system, self-perpetuating wealth, a 'political class', that sort of jazz.

There might be some sort of 'organisation' to their groups, but they don't tend to have a treasurer, or take minutes!

[Hoboh]

I am not an anarchist (though i once was), but remain very attracted to ideas of freedom, equality and collective ownership and management of production.

So what is it that you used to believe in but now don't?

Anarchy at a guess...

It seems to me that that term has a lot of connotations but is hard to pin down and define... which is why I was hoping William might explain what it is he used to believe in that made him and anarchist, but now doesn't.

You are correct that there are a variety of ideas that lay claim to 'Anarchism', from extreme individualism to the comunismo libertario of the Spanish CNT-FAI. I was attracted by the collectivist ideas of the Russian anarchist, Bakunin (Marx's major rival in the First International Workers Association), further developed by his compatriot Kropotkin (described by Oscar Wilde in his inspired The Soul of Man under Socialism) - whose doctrine was known as anarcho -communism. I was also influenced by the anarcho-syndicalism of the late 19th and early 20th centuries when anarchists were founders of the great militant trade unions of France, Italy, Spain, and much of Latin America. I despised the tyranny of the soviet union, that i viewed as oppressive state capitalism where the CP formed a bureaucratic ruling class no more representative of the workers than any other.

The basic ideas were the abolition of private property and capitalism, its replacement by free confederations of workers who would own the land and all forms of industry collectively. There would be no need for government or for the state, since the state was simply the mechanism for class rule, and with the abolition of classes it would be possible to abolish the state, and the oppressive structures it imposes on the people - armies, prisons, police, structures that are only necessary to protect private property, which has been abolished so no need for them... Bakunin expresses the central idea thus: We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

It was a tremendous idealistic vision that I bought into pretty completely for six or seven years in my teens and early 20s.

I departed to join dissident Marxist groupings, and, eventually, made my way back into the Labour Party, which I left pretty soon after Blair became the leader. I continue to define myself as a libertarian socialist.

What dear boy would you do with all these unemployed people? Do these worker collectives have the right to shoot other worker collectives that are rivals or are we all supposed to get stoned and live in peace and love hippy type communes?
Hell, bring on Anarchy

[Bruce Rioja]

Oh for feck's sake. John Baron MP has just used the term "Direction of travel". Iain Sinclair said that this would come to be in Ghost Milk.

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... omers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

William! Surely such a wanton act of desecration on such a scale, merits the wrath of your good self on behalf of all those fellow diners who enjoy the finer points of a very good dinner accompanied by all the various vessels and implements!! It really is quite scandalous!! What next? Wine in paper cups that wont break so you wont cut yourself?

STOP BRUSSELS NOW!

The bit in the middle should scare the hell out of you Europhiles, the bit were the EU dic..... sorry the spokesperson claimed it would help boost the economy of the south European country's, how many other little schemes are they dreaming up to get us to 'Bail out Euro currency country's?
Feck me this takes the p*ss! We don't use the Euro nor are we members of that particular group, yet those bloody foreigners are getting us to pay for their cockups through yet another backdoor to add to the IMF one.
The longer we stay, the more we pay!

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... sylum.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Last night a Home Office spokesman refused to discuss the nine arrivals in detail but suggested that the four who were set free would have been given transport to a hostel where they would be housed rent-free. They would be given information on how to apply for benefits for asylum seekers, which would start with cash payments of £36 a week, and be told to check in regularly to dissuade them from absconding again.


The Home Office spokesman claimed to have no figures for the number of clandestine arrivals caught in Kent – saying immigration control centres were in France and Belgium, not England.

Oh right

We should be thanking God every day for 'clear blue water' between us and those bloody foreigners, yet some still are happy to grease their palms!

[Prufrock]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... omers.html

William! Surely such a wanton act of desecration on such a scale, merits the wrath of your good self on behalf of all those fellow diners who enjoy the finer points of a very good dinner accompanied by all the various vessels and implements!! It really is quite scandalous!! What next? Wine in paper cups that wont break so you wont cut yourself?

STOP BRUSSELS NOW!

The bit in the middle should scare the hell out of you Europhiles, the bit were the EU dic..... sorry the spokesperson claimed it would help boost the economy of the south European country's, how many other little schemes are they dreaming up to get us to 'Bail out Euro currency country's?
Feck me this takes the p*ss! We don't use the Euro nor are we members of that particular group, yet those bloody foreigners are getting us to pay for their cockups through yet another backdoor to add to the IMF one.
The longer we stay, the more we pay!

Snooze. Surprisingly for them, it appears the Daily Mail has gone bat-shit mental and forgotten how to read when it comes to the EU. They haven't banned anything of the sort. You can still have olive oil in ramekins etc. It's just more consumer protection legislation aimed at ensuring the customer gets what he's paid for. They can no longer sell you 'Artisan extra virgin olive oil' that they bring to you in a jug and is actually the 49p shit they've picked up from Asda. All they have to do is bring it you in something properly labelled which says what it is, and where it's from. You yourself are as free as ever to then stick it in a ramekin or whatever and dip away to your heart's content. Any implications in that article that the dipping itself is going to be banned for hygiene reasons are utterly fabricated. The only hygiene involved is ensuring, as with so much EU legislation that the tabloids don't read, go nuts over, and invent things that it has banned, is that you get what you've paid for.

I'd imagine you'd normally be in favour of things which stop wide-boy scrotes ripping people off, you know, if it didn't have an EU hat on.

Learn to stop being so fcuking gullible. Please.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the bottom bit.

[William the White]

Wait till the EU get round to regulating extra strong cider. He'll be apoplectic by then. Rage will have known no more ferocious paroxysm in entire human history.

Hope the Johnny Foreigners do it soon!

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... omers.html

William! Surely such a wanton act of desecration on such a scale, merits the wrath of your good self on behalf of all those fellow diners who enjoy the finer points of a very good dinner accompanied by all the various vessels and implements!! It really is quite scandalous!! What next? Wine in paper cups that wont break so you wont cut yourself?

STOP BRUSSELS NOW!

The bit in the middle should scare the hell out of you Europhiles, the bit were the EU dic..... sorry the spokesperson claimed it would help boost the economy of the south European country's, how many other little schemes are they dreaming up to get us to 'Bail out Euro currency country's?
Feck me this takes the p*ss! We don't use the Euro nor are we members of that particular group, yet those bloody foreigners are getting us to pay for their cockups through yet another backdoor to add to the IMF one.
The longer we stay, the more we pay!

Snooze. Surprisingly for them, it appears the Daily Mail has gone bat-shit mental and forgotten how to read when it comes to the EU. They haven't banned anything of the sort. You can still have olive oil in ramekins etc. It's just more consumer protection legislation aimed at ensuring the customer gets what he's paid for. They can no longer sell you 'Artisan extra virgin olive oil' that they bring to you in a jug and is actually the 49p shit they've picked up from Asda. All they have to do is bring it you in something properly labelled which says what it is, and where it's from. You yourself are as free as ever to then stick it in a ramekin or whatever and dip away to your heart's content. Any implications in that article that the dipping itself is going to be banned for hygiene reasons are utterly fabricated. The only hygiene involved is ensuring, as with so much EU legislation that the tabloids don't read, go nuts over, and invent things that it has banned, is that you get what you've paid for.

I'd imagine you'd normally be in favour of things which stop wide-boy scrotes ripping people off, you know, if it didn't have an EU hat on.

Learn to stop being so fcuking gullible. Please.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the bottom bit.

Aye.

Hoboh's just been embarrassed there.

Usual ill-thought out anti-EU bile from the Daily Mail.

Sadly most people in this country don't seem to have the brainpower to see through some very basic things.

It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... omers.html

William! Surely such a wanton act of desecration on such a scale, merits the wrath of your good self on behalf of all those fellow diners who enjoy the finer points of a very good dinner accompanied by all the various vessels and implements!! It really is quite scandalous!! What next? Wine in paper cups that wont break so you wont cut yourself?

STOP BRUSSELS NOW!

The bit in the middle should scare the hell out of you Europhiles, the bit were the EU dic..... sorry the spokesperson claimed it would help boost the economy of the south European country's, how many other little schemes are they dreaming up to get us to 'Bail out Euro currency country's?
Feck me this takes the p*ss! We don't use the Euro nor are we members of that particular group, yet those bloody foreigners are getting us to pay for their cockups through yet another backdoor to add to the IMF one.
The longer we stay, the more we pay!

Snooze. Surprisingly for them, it appears the Daily Mail has gone bat-shit mental and forgotten how to read when it comes to the EU. They haven't banned anything of the sort. You can still have olive oil in ramekins etc. It's just more consumer protection legislation aimed at ensuring the customer gets what he's paid for. They can no longer sell you 'Artisan extra virgin olive oil' that they bring to you in a jug and is actually the 49p shit they've picked up from Asda. All they have to do is bring it you in something properly labelled which says what it is, and where it's from. You yourself are as free as ever to then stick it in a ramekin or whatever and dip away to your heart's content. Any implications in that article that the dipping itself is going to be banned for hygiene reasons are utterly fabricated. The only hygiene involved is ensuring, as with so much EU legislation that the tabloids don't read, go nuts over, and invent things that it has banned, is that you get what you've paid for.

I'd imagine you'd normally be in favour of things which stop wide-boy scrotes ripping people off, you know, if it didn't have an EU hat on.

Learn to stop being so fcuking gullible. Please.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the bottom bit.

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.

Yep, read it. They took the words right out of my mouth

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... omers.html

William! Surely such a wanton act of desecration on such a scale, merits the wrath of your good self on behalf of all those fellow diners who enjoy the finer points of a very good dinner accompanied by all the various vessels and implements!! It really is quite scandalous!! What next? Wine in paper cups that wont break so you wont cut yourself?

STOP BRUSSELS NOW!

The bit in the middle should scare the hell out of you Europhiles, the bit were the EU dic..... sorry the spokesperson claimed it would help boost the economy of the south European country's, how many other little schemes are they dreaming up to get us to 'Bail out Euro currency country's?
Feck me this takes the p*ss! We don't use the Euro nor are we members of that particular group, yet those bloody foreigners are getting us to pay for their cockups through yet another backdoor to add to the IMF one.
The longer we stay, the more we pay!

Snooze. Surprisingly for them, it appears the Daily Mail has gone bat-shit mental and forgotten how to read when it comes to the EU. They haven't banned anything of the sort. You can still have olive oil in ramekins etc. It's just more consumer protection legislation aimed at ensuring the customer gets what he's paid for. They can no longer sell you 'Artisan extra virgin olive oil' that they bring to you in a jug and is actually the 49p shit they've picked up from Asda. All they have to do is bring it you in something properly labelled which says what it is, and where it's from. You yourself are as free as ever to then stick it in a ramekin or whatever and dip away to your heart's content. Any implications in that article that the dipping itself is going to be banned for hygiene reasons are utterly fabricated. The only hygiene involved is ensuring, as with so much EU legislation that the tabloids don't read, go nuts over, and invent things that it has banned, is that you get what you've paid for.

I'd imagine you'd normally be in favour of things which stop wide-boy scrotes ripping people off, you know, if it didn't have an EU hat on.

Learn to stop being so fcuking gullible. Please.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the bottom bit.

Aye.

Hoboh's just been embarrassed there.
I would be if I missed a touch of Irony like that

Usual ill-thought out anti-EU bile from the Daily Mail.
Ok so we should go with that paragon of the people, The Mirror!
Sadly most people in this country don't seem to have the brainpower to see through some very basic things.

It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

Spoken like a true socialist, "we know what's best for the people".
No matter which way you dress it up, the EU is just as democratic as Stalin and his close henchmen were. Don't ever make the mistake that they don't dislike and mistrust the Brits, which is why we will never influence any future shape for Europe
The EU finance ministers are busy preaching austerity to the population (just like current lot are) while continuing to expand the budget of this Monolithic Monster, yet you say you'd sooner die than vote for this or any Tory Government that are doing the same? The mind truly boggles!

[BWFC_Insane]

Perhaps you could just explain what is so bad about a law that stops restaurants from pretending they are giving you olive oil, but instead have replaced it with cheap crap?

What part of that do you actually object to? Or do you enjoy being ripped off?

[Worthy4England]

Perhaps you could just explain what is so bad about a law that stops restaurants from pretending they are giving you olive oil, but instead have replaced it with cheap crap?

What part of that do you actually object to? Or do you enjoy being ripped off?

I think, in light of recent comments, what's more important for us to know, is whether Hoboh is a "swivel-eyed loon".

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

Isn't what has been demonstrated here a democratic debate in which the truth came out in the end?

[TANGODANCER]

Sadly most people in this country don't seem to have the brainpower to see through some very basic things. It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

Bit like your views on Bolton Wanderers then?

[BWFC_Insane]

It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

Isn't what has been demonstrated here a democratic debate in which the truth came out in the end?

What are the most read dailies? Are you confident of this being replicated on a national scale?

I'm not.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

A self-righteous anti-democratic instinct has been corrosive for the European project, in my opinion.

For me the debates have to be fought and won on a national (and international scale) - the shying away from it and muddling on regardless just won't cut it.

[BWFC_Insane]

A self-righteous anti-democratic instinct has been corrosive for the European project, in my opinion.

For me the debates have to be fought and won on a national (and international scale) - the shying away from it and muddling on regardless just won't cut it.

But why does it need the common man to vote on something so important that is incredibly complex?

The argument is an economic one. But it won't be won or lost on economic grounds and you know it.

Leading economists can't agree after years and years of research so you're expecting the public to call the points accurately?

[Bruce Rioja]

It's why there shouldn't be a referendum. Too important to let people who cannot understand the basics as demonstrated here, have a say.

In which case you may as well do away with democracy altogether then. I understand what you're saying but the burden of responsibility lies with the pro's and the anti's to put forward their case in a way that's clear to all, even if that means patronising the many, no?

[William the White]

It's the responsibility of advocates on both sides to make the case in ways that enlighten the public and enable them to make a choice. If they are incapable of that (as Clegg was on electoral reform) then their incompetence will damage their chances of victory.

I don't think democratic choice is impossible (though i'm not convinced about the need for a referendum at this time it's clearly driven by the political panic of the tories rather than any other pressing issue). Genuine debate will be rendered less possible by the rabid right, Mail, Express, poss Sun and certainly UKIP, that's true, but broadcast media will be fairer.

In the end it will be the economic arguments that will carry the most weight. Which decision will give the best chance of creating jobs, security and prosperity? Anti-foreigner prejudice will not, imo, be decisive. There simply aren't enough hobohs.

We could do with a few more, obviously. For the laughs.