Dougie

[BWFC_Insane]

Bottom line is, I'm sure Dougie would pick a different team if he could do it again. But not because what he picked initially was "wrong" in some terrible tactical oversight sense that the football manager generation will fecking save quit and try again with another ludicrous system. But because the players froze and having a young lad like Hall required the senior players to stand up and lead the way. But they didn't.

and is any of that attributable to man-management and preparation?

Depending upon which manager you are talking about, you would get two quite different answers.

You would. Because Dougie picked up a team on it's knees in a shambles and had a group of players he probably wouldn't choose to work with and still got more out of them than most people expected at various points last season. To turn a mentality round will take a) time b) new personnel. I've managed large failing teams and whilst you might iron out processes initially, the failure usually requires people in and out. That takes longer.

There is also a very big difference. Dougie has shown he is keen to change things round, try new things out, vary it. And will change if it's not working. Coyle carried on, to the point of negligence, playing the same team, the same system and making the same mistakes time and time again. Whilst assembling a weak group both mentally and physically.

Managers make decisions that sometimes don't work out. Dougie did on the last game. You can argue what difference Sordell (who had been useless the week before btw) may have made, but nobody will ever know. If he plays the same team and system for the next 25 games and it keeps failing and unlike against Blackpool he doesn't change it, he'll be criticised just like the last bloke was.

But people are far too quick to compare criticism of a bloke who took the team he assembled down over a disastrous season then proceeded to leave it 18th in the championship with the guy who came in picked it up and 6 months later ended up 7th.

Coyle was criticised for a long term failure and repeated stubborness, despte consistent failure of his methods.

The situation was in no way analagous to what we have at the present time and to try and compare criticism of Coyle and non-criticism of Dougie at this stage is ludicrous.

Too much on here gets pigeon holed. Coyle was useless and I said so, when it became very apparent. Dougie so far has impressed me. I certainly do not think he's the saviour or the second coming. I hope that he continues to impress and take the club back in the right direction. And most of what he needs to do is actually off the pitch. We need to be back to the professional outfit we were under Allardyce. With a proper backroom with people who are qualified filling the roles and the facilities and equipment fully utilised and integrated.

The organisation as a whole needed turning round and I'm hopeful that journey has started. But like anything of this magnitude it's going to be a long and slow process. But it needs doing right. I'm more hopeful we've got someone who understands that than I've been for a long time.

If you want "Keeganesque 4-4 fecking 2" management then I suspect you're going to be quite disappointed.

[Lord Kangana]

I just want successful management. The jury is still out.

[thebish]

you did used to say that the buck stopped at the manager and that you could not blame the players... now you seem to be saying the buck stops at the players and you cannot blame the manager...

if - as you say - the problem was not the technical ability of the players or their fitness - but that they "froze"... are you really now saying that the mental preparation of the players for what was a very big game casts no shadow at all on the manager? are you really saying that? we KNOW what that team was capable of under Dougie - they had just won umpteen games at home under his management - so it isn't the players he inherited, he had already shown they could win at home consistently under his management...

that they were not up for this last important game - really NOTHING to do with the manager?? not even a tiny bit?? not his responsibility at all??

[Enoch]

Finding fault, be it with a football manager or the way the buses run, is about the easiest thing I can think of. Freedman's stay at Bolton hopefully won't be judged on any single decision he makes, any more than Allardyce, Todd, or Rioch were, or even Lord Ferguson come to that.

This time next year I'm expecting to have a clearer view on whether he's likely to be a success. On what I've witnessed to date, he's in credit thus far; measured against what went before him, if he wasn't, he'd be long gone I suspect.

Too many drugs some folk, that or they're hen pecked and come on here to let it all out.

[thebish]

Finding fault, be it with a football manager or the way the buses run, is about the easiest thing I can think of. Freedman's stay at Bolton hopefully won't be judged on any single decision he makes, any more than Allardyce, Todd, or Rioch were, or even Lord Ferguson come to that.

This time next year I'm expecting to have a clearer view on whether he's likely to be a success. On what I've witnessed to date, he's in credit thus far; measured against what went before him, if he wasn't, he'd be long gone I suspect.

Too many drugs some folk, that or they're hen pecked and come on here to let it all out.

^ yes to most of the above - but life would be boring if we all came on here and wrote "isn't Freedman ace!" As BWFCi keeps telling us, "Freedman isn't the Messiah" - so it can be interesting, surely, to discuss his faults too?

surely we're not real Bolton fans if we can't have a good moan every now and again!!

Personally, I'd be a lot more positive than BWFCi has been and nail my colours to the mast and say outright that Freedman IS the man for the job and I hope he is still our manager in 5 yrs time. I understand others don't want to go that far and still have reservations and want to wait a bit longer before making a judgement - and that's fine - but having said I definitely think Freedman IS the man for the job - I still reserve the right to question some of the things he does...

[BWFC_Insane]

Bish what I'm saying is if over an extended period and with the new players and back room systems that Dougie puts in place the same failures occur then yes the buck stops with him. But right now he is hopefully turning the ship and there will be blips and yes errors. But it's not the same as failing when you've in your own words got 'the squad you always wanted' and employed all your mates in the process. But you know that anyways......

[BWFC_Insane]

I just want successful management. The jury is still out.

Brilliant. But do you think the approach Dougie is bringing is going to achieve what you want? Easy to sit on the fence. Do you think bringing back the meticulous preparation and sports science and scouting around the world again is the way forward?

Because that's why I feel more optimistic. The pragmatic approach has returned along with I sense some ambition.

It of course remains to be seen but you know what sort of managerial style do you want beyond the obvious of successful? Or what style do you think will achieve the best results?

[BL3]

Dougie has shown he is keen to change things round, try new things out, vary it.

Usually when he doesn't need to do it.

[Enoch]

surely we're not real Bolton fans if we can't have a good moan every now and again!!

Being that you, as I, migrated to sunnier climes, I'd thought you might have lost some of that northern misery.

The discussion I find interesting/amusing enough to keep bringing me back, for sure that's the lifeblood of the boards. It's the knuckle dragging points scorers I was referring to, that appear only to sign in so as to vent their poison. Fortunately they are in a very small minority and a decent run of form appears to kill their passion.

Please feel free to bicker away.

[thebish]

Bish what I'm saying is if over an extended period and with the new players and back room systems that Dougie puts in place the same failures occur then yes the buck stops with him. But right now he is hopefully turning the ship and there will be blips and yes errors. But it's not the same as failing when you've in your own words got 'the squad you always wanted' and employed all your mates in the process. But you know that anyways......

and what i am saying is that we know those players were capable of beating blackpool at home under dougie's management. so - how come they weren't properly prepared not to freeze on the day? isn't that even the tiniest bit down to the way the manager prepared them in the week leading up to the game? can you not even contemplate the idea that dougie might have missed a trick somewhere and not prepared them psychologically for the big game? I am just talking about this game... do you think the players were prepared properly for it? if so - then why did they freeze/underperform?

[thebish]

I just want successful management. The jury is still out.

Brilliant. But do you think the approach Dougie is bringing is going to achieve what you want? Easy to sit on the fence.

you're still on the fence!! you said you would not make a decision about dougie until 2 yrs after he was appointed...

I have come out and said he IS the man for the job... what do you say to that fence-boy??

[thebish]

Dougie has shown he is keen to change things round, try new things out, vary it.

Usually when he doesn't need to do it.

aye - because no change around was needed when he arrived - it was all going fine!!

[jaffka]

Bottom line is, I'm sure Dougie would pick a different team if he could do it again. But not because what he picked initially was "wrong" in some terrible tactical oversight sense that the football manager generation will fecking save quit and try again with another ludicrous system. But because the players froze and having a young lad like Hall required the senior players to stand up and lead the way. But they didn't.

and is any of that attributable to man-management and preparation?

Depending upon which manager you are talking about, you would get two quite different answers.

You would. Because Dougie picked up a team on it's knees in a shambles and had a group of players he probably wouldn't choose to work with and still got more out of them than most people expected at various points last season. To turn a mentality round will take a) time b) new personnel. I've managed large failing teams and whilst you might iron out processes initially, the failure usually requires people in and out. That takes longer.

There is also a very big difference. Dougie has shown he is keen to change things round, try new things out, vary it. And will change if it's not working. Coyle carried on, to the point of negligence, playing the same team, the same system and making the same mistakes time and time again. Whilst assembling a weak group both mentally and physically.

Managers make decisions that sometimes don't work out. Dougie did on the last game. You can argue what difference Sordell (who had been useless the week before btw) may have made, but nobody will ever know. If he plays the same team and system for the next 25 games and it keeps failing and unlike against Blackpool he doesn't change it, he'll be criticised just like the last bloke was.

But people are far too quick to compare criticism of a bloke who took the team he assembled down over a disastrous season then proceeded to leave it 18th in the championship with the guy who came in picked it up and 6 months later ended up 7th.

Coyle was criticised for a long term failure and repeated stubborness, despte consistent failure of his methods.

The situation was in no way analagous to what we have at the present time and to try and compare criticism of Coyle and non-criticism of Dougie at this stage is ludicrous.

Too much on here gets pigeon holed. Coyle was useless and I said so, when it became very apparent. Dougie so far has impressed me. I certainly do not think he's the saviour or the second coming. I hope that he continues to impress and take the club back in the right direction. And most of what he needs to do is actually off the pitch. We need to be back to the professional outfit we were under Allardyce. With a proper backroom with people who are qualified filling the roles and the facilities and equipment fully utilised and integrated.

The organisation as a whole needed turning round and I'm hopeful that journey has started. But like anything of this magnitude it's going to be a long and slow process. But it needs doing right. I'm more hopeful we've got someone who understands that than I've been for a long time.

If you want "Keeganesque 4-4 fecking 2" management then I suspect you're going to be quite disappointed.

So you are a bigot then.

[jaffka]

Bish what I'm saying is if over an extended period and with the new players and back room systems that Dougie puts in place the same failures occur then yes the buck stops with him. But right now he is hopefully turning the ship and there will be blips and yes errors. But it's not the same as failing when you've in your own words got 'the squad you always wanted' and employed all your mates in the process. But you know that anyways......

and what i am saying is that we know those players were capable of beating blackpool at home under dougie's management. so - how come they weren't properly prepared not to freeze on the day? isn't that even the tiniest bit down to the way the manager prepared them in the week leading up to the game? can you not even contemplate the idea that dougie might have missed a trick somewhere and not prepared them psychologically for the big game? I am just talking about this game... do you think the players were prepared properly for it? if so - then why did they freeze/underperform?

It was coyles fault.

[Prufrock]

you did used to say that the buck stopped at the manager and that you could not blame the players... now you seem to be saying the buck stops at the players and you cannot blame the manager...

if - as you say - the problem was not the technical ability of the players or their fitness - but that they "froze"... are you really now saying that the mental preparation of the players for what was a very big game casts no shadow at all on the manager? are you really saying that? we KNOW what that team was capable of under Dougie - they had just won umpteen games at home under his management - so it isn't the players he inherited, he had already shown they could win at home consistently under his management...

that they were not up for this last important game - really NOTHING to do with the manager?? not even a tiny bit?? not his responsibility at all??

It isn't inconsistent to blame the players for individual performances, but the manager for long-term failures.

Anyway, I don't think we were shite against Blackpool because we changed from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1, but because we changed from a settled side which had been playing well. It was a bizarre one, and although I understand the thinking, with hindsight it was definitely a mistake.

A minus in the column, but overall he's still overwhelmingly in the positive.

[Bruce Rioja]

A minus in the column, but overall he's still overwhelmingly in the positive.

Exactly. Only BWFC-I refuses to see this.

[BWFC_Insane]

A minus in the column, but overall he's still overwhelmingly in the positive.

Exactly. Only BWFC-I refuses to see this.

I see it, I just don't think the system and selection was the only reason. Before the game I said i thought he'd made a mistake picking Ream. Perhaps without Dawson he felt the back four needed covering. I mean even if the system didn't work had we defended properly early doors we'd not have been two down.

I'm fully prepared to say he won't get everything right. But Fergie, Mourinho even now make plenty, nay loads of mistakes just like that.

They're only mistakes after the event.

And like I say plenty questioned loads of Allardyce's decisions early doors. In a way I like that. A manager who constantly picks the obvious probably means they don't have much imagination.

Dougie will make mistakes. But only in the same way every single manager will.

[thebish]

A minus in the column, but overall he's still overwhelmingly in the positive.

Exactly. Only BWFC-I refuses to see this.

I see it, I just don't think the system and selection was the only reason. Before the game I said i thought he'd made a mistake picking Ream. Perhaps without Dawson he felt the back four needed covering. I mean even if the system didn't work had we defended properly early doors we'd not have been two down.

I'm fully prepared to say he won't get everything right. But Fergie, Mourinho even now make plenty, nay loads of mistakes just like that.

They're only mistakes after the event.

And like I say plenty questioned loads of Allardyce's decisions early doors. In a way I like that. A manager who constantly picks the obvious probably means they don't have much imagination.

Dougie will make mistakes. But only in the same way every single manager will.

has dougie made any yet, though? if so - what were they?

PS - did you REALLY just write "early doors"???

[LeverEnd]

A minus in the column, but overall he's still overwhelmingly in the positive.

Exactly. Only BWFC-I refuses to see this.

I see it, I just don't think the system and selection was the only reason. Before the game I said i thought he'd made a mistake picking Ream. Perhaps without Dawson he felt the back four needed covering. I mean even if the system didn't work had we defended properly early doors we'd not have been two down.

I'm fully prepared to say he won't get everything right. But Fergie, Mourinho even now make plenty, nay loads of mistakes just like that.

They're only mistakes after the event.

And like I say plenty questioned loads of Allardyce's decisions early doors. In a way I like that. A manager who constantly picks the obvious probably means they don't have much imagination.

Dougie will make mistakes. But only in the same way every single manager will.

has dougie made any yet, though? if so - what were they?

PS - did you REALLY just write "early doors"???

Classic BigRonism

[Mar]

I see it, I just don't think the system and selection was the only reason. Before the game I said i thought he'd made a mistake picking Ream. Perhaps without Dawson he felt the back four needed covering. I mean even if the system didn't work had we defended properly early doors we'd not have been two down.

There were a few questionable decisions but I don't think Dougie should be blamed for not getting the play off spot.

His game plan was seemingly to have the main strikers being able to give their all for at least 30-60 minutes. The introduction of Robert Hall was indeed a strange one but I don't think Hall was a mistake, just a surprise. In fact I would say Hall had the best of the opening half an hour from our forwards.

The use of Ream on the last day of the season could be questioned but then again whoever he picked would've come under the same sort of scrutiny. Wheater hadn't been played for any large quantity of time, neither had Mills, so we were at odds as to who should come in. Maybe this should've been considered in the build up to the final game of the season but it could easily be argued that had he tried more defensive options we wouldn't have made it to the situation we found ourselves in.

The team quite clearly found themselves in an odd state of trying to know what was happening elsewhere instead of seeing out their own jobs. Had we gone in with a must win attitude and not tapered off in the final stages we probably would've pushed on from that opening first half.