bloody norah... :-(

[Bruce Rioja]

He hasn't offered any explanation, other than it might be hate crime.
So quit the trolling William.

Is that what's meant by 'pushing the def'?

[William the White]

He hasn't offered any explanation, other than it might be hate crime.
So quit the trolling William.

Absolutely no trolling going on...

I was asking the poster to expand on his interesting notion that you'd have to be 'pushing the def' to define three fire bombs launched at a mosque in the current circumstances as anything other than a 'hate crime'...

May I ask, politely, in what way was this trolling?

[thebish]

He hasn't offered any explanation, other than it might be hate crime.
So quit the trolling William.

Absolutely no trolling going on...

I was asking the poster to expand on his interesting notion that you'd have to be 'pushing the def' to define three fire bombs launched at a mosque in the current circumstances as anything other than a 'hate crime'...

May I ask, politely, in what way was this trolling?

^ you're just saying that cos you're a Muslim...

[CrazyHorse]

He hasn't offered any explanation, other than it might be hate crime.
So quit the trolling William.

Absolutely no trolling going on...

I was asking the poster to expand on his interesting notion that you'd have to be 'pushing the def' to define three fire bombs launched at a mosque in the current circumstances as anything other than a 'hate crime'...

May I ask, politely, in what way was this trolling?

Cute.
You weren't asking him to expand. You were trying to put words in his mouth, cos you just love a reaction.

So may I ask, politely, for you to quit the trolling. Ta.

[a1]

if its the one i saw on telly, it burned the bins a bit , and maybe trapped them inside for a while, while they got a fire extinguisher. maybe shit a few up for a bit while they figured out what to do. its hardly watching some kid get chopped up while 20 plus people film his attacker's rants on various ipads while not even one bystander has the bollocks to run him over in a car to stop him or cave the c*nts head in with a spade.

its apples and oranges

iirc there's been knobheads roaming the streets of bolton for at least 18 months setting fire to bins while folk're alsleep in their beds.

and theyve still not caught them yet.

if they do, how much prison time will they get ?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

LLS, if you are saying that Islam is a religion more likely, in itself, to lead to violence, rather than Muslims are more likely to be violent, then, whilst I disagree, I can at least go with that as a non-cretinous or feline position.

Do you disagree on the grounds of having researched this?

Only I acquired a copy of the Quran a while back and, whilst it's difficult to determine cause and effect for any individual's actions, I would say there is more for a violent person to hang a justificatory hat on in Islam (as described by Russell Brand above) than there is in other religions.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

LLS, if you are saying that Islam is a religion more likely, in itself, to lead to violence, rather than Muslims are more likely to be violent, then, whilst I disagree, I can at least go with that as a non-cretinous or feline position.

Do you disagree on the grounds of having researched this?

Only I acquired a copy of the Quran a while back and, whilst it's difficult to determine cause and effect for any individual's actions, I would say there is more for a violent person to hang a justificatory hat on in Islam (as described by Russell Brand above) than there is in other religions.

[Worthy4England]

To keep up with the semi religious aspect of this thread. It has a healthy air of Jesus-fecking-wept about it.

[Prufrock]

LLS, if you are saying that Islam is a religion more likely, in itself, to lead to violence, rather than Muslims are more likely to be violent, then, whilst I disagree, I can at least go with that as a non-cretinous or feline position.

Do you disagree on the grounds of having researched this?

Only I acquired a copy of the Quran a while back and, whilst it's difficult to determine cause and effect for any individual's actions, I would say there is more for a violent person to hang a justificatory hat on in Islam (as described by Russell Brand above) than there is in other religions.

Certainly no research. I haven't read the Quran, but I know a few Muslims who have only 'read' the Quran in a language they don't understand. They had been taught to chant passages, and were taught 'lessons' for want of a better word in English, and read translations and whatnot which have lead them to the position of being perfectly sane normal human beings.I don't think the Quran is a 'cover-to-cover guidebook for Muslims' any more than your average Christian Aid volunteer could quote you scripture.

I did also sit down and start to read the Bible from the beginning about a year ago and was struck about how 'classical' it seemed. Wars and heroism here, there and everywhere. Big themes that you could certainly hang your hat on. If you wanted it to be, the Old Testament in particular has a big 'persecuted' angry vibe and the New can be read as 'F*ck the Jews'. Without reading it, I can't talk particularly on the Quran, so maybe it's more direct, but if you wanted to go and kill someone in the name of 'God' there's plenty in the Bible, should you wish to read it that way.

[Hoboh]

abhor: v. detest; hate. concise Oxford Dictionary. Though I'm obviously prepared to accept what I think is LLS's assertion that he thought 'abhor' had a milder connotation.

I don't see any problem in accepting LLS's assertion that he was distinguishing between Islam and Muslims and in a overheated debating mode misstated when he said that stuff about believers.

I think Islam has many aspects to it. The militant version is repellent, in my view. But it does not represent all Muslims. My own experience of living in Sudan was the faith was held lightly by many Muslims - I was fortunate enough to make friends with very bad Muslims wherever I went, and we got some serious drinking done.

Islamic art and architecture is tremendous, and much mor to my taste than much Christian art and architecture - I'd have the Alhambra and the Mezquita at Cordoba over York minster any day (and that's my favourite large cathedral in the UK).

I welcome the fact that I think I have now made my position plain. I am an admirer of Islamic architecture and to a certain extent Islamic history. Islamic art on the other hand I find to be meh. I probably never will meet you eye to eye on Islam itself: you are an obvious admirer, in fact I'd half guessed from your posts that you yourself were Muslim.
So my next question, posed in the spirit of genuine inquiry is - do you think there is a global jihadist movement, or do you think it is just disparate political action under a false label?
And as I'm back on my phone and all the awkwardness that implies I shall answe Monty in that I have no idea how thin or thick the ice is but I believe in free speech and debate and if ny country wants to try to prosecute me for that, so be it.

Not in the sense that it is globally organised, with globally recognised leaders, no, i don't think so.

Are there jihadist groups dotted around the globe that share a common political view of a world wide Caliphate? Definitely, but mostly dreamers. I think there are more groups that would aspire to taking up arms/guerrilla war/terror in most countries with a significant muslim population. There just aren't that many. But, as the IRA used to say about British security - you have to get lucky all the time, we only have to get lucky once... They got lucky once - the tube bombings. They haven't since, but probably will again.

Are they a threat to the fabric of our society? Only if we let them. Are they numerous - not really, but that doesn't make them insignificant. last figures i saw the police MI5 estimated 4000 activists or sympathisers in the UK. If we want their numbers to increase, one good tactic would be to throw petrol bombs at a mosque while a service is in progress. Idiots!!!

Another would be to crack down on 'human rights', as hoboh advocates. Nothing helped the Provisional IRA recruit more than the imposition of internment.

Be more confident. most of the jihadist leaders are known. There has been only one home grown successful attack in this country (it looks like the murder in Woolwich was not a conspiracy but a nasty piece of freelance activity). Work towards greater integration of muslims into our society. The more people have a stake the more committed they are to their world.

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.
There should be a charter of 'Citizens Rights' that spell out responsibilities to society as well, fail this and you get fecked off! Break it and expect to get hammered.

[thebish]

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.

which bits of the Human Rights Act are you in favour of - and which would you scrap?

[Montreal Wanderer]

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.

which bits of the Human Rights Act are you in favour of - and which would you scrap?

My guess is the bits that give immigrants and anyone left of centre the same rights as those to the right of the political spectrum. Perhaps I am unfair.

[Hoboh]

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.

which bits of the Human Rights Act are you in favour of - and which would you scrap?

My guess is the bits that give immigrants and anyone left of centre the same rights as those to the right of the political spectrum. Perhaps I am unfair.

Nice try Monty
People who abuse the fact they are given a relative safe haven in this country yet choose to carry on their battles and even have the cheek to spread and foster hatred of this or any countries population and democratically elected Government.
These people know what will happen to them in their own country it is not our job to interfere with their laws and ways, they are not like a local council.
Immigrants? Mmmm, you break our laws we bang you up then throw you out, really quite simple.
Our own lot of loonies should find that a prison is the most austere hell they ever could be admitted to, I guess the population incarcerated would fall by about 2/3 if this was so.
What I find unbelievable is the amount of folk who object when Governments get involved in removing regimes overseas are the same ones who bemoan the lack of 'Human Rights' and stamp their feet yet fail to offer any other alternatives or solutions to these problems. All they are interested in is social engineering on an international scale or maybe it's just so they can massage their own superior conscience.

[thebish]

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.

which bits of the Human Rights Act are you in favour of - and which would you scrap?

My guess is the bits that give immigrants and anyone left of centre the same rights as those to the right of the political spectrum. Perhaps I am unfair.

Nice try Monty
People who abuse the fact they are given a relative safe haven in this country yet choose to carry on their battles and even have the cheek to spread and foster hatred of this or any countries population and democratically elected Government.
These people know what will happen to them in their own country it is not our job to interfere with their laws and ways, they are not like a local council.
Immigrants? Mmmm, you break our laws we bang you up then throw you out, really quite simple.
Our own lot of loonies should find that a prison is the most austere hell they ever could be admitted to, I guess the population incarcerated would fall by about 2/3 if this was so.
What I find unbelievable is the amount of folk who object when Governments get involved in removing regimes overseas are the same ones who bemoan the lack of 'Human Rights' and stamp their feet yet fail to offer any other alternatives or solutions to these problems. All they are interested in is social engineering on an international scale or maybe it's just so they can massage their own superior conscience.

so... which bits?

[Hoboh]

Must take you to task on that William.
I am not totally anti-rights for people merely the sweeping generalization that no matter what you do there is always a 'cop out' provided by the current 'Human Rights' act.

which bits of the Human Rights Act are you in favour of - and which would you scrap?

My guess is the bits that give immigrants and anyone left of centre the same rights as those to the right of the political spectrum. Perhaps I am unfair.

Nice try Monty
People who abuse the fact they are given a relative safe haven in this country yet choose to carry on their battles and even have the cheek to spread and foster hatred of this or any countries population and democratically elected Government.
These people know what will happen to them in their own country it is not our job to interfere with their laws and ways, they are not like a local council.
Immigrants? Mmmm, you break our laws we bang you up then throw you out, really quite simple.
Our own lot of loonies should find that a prison is the most austere hell they ever could be admitted to, I guess the population incarcerated would fall by about 2/3 if this was so.
What I find unbelievable is the amount of folk who object when Governments get involved in removing regimes overseas are the same ones who bemoan the lack of 'Human Rights' and stamp their feet yet fail to offer any other alternatives or solutions to these problems. All they are interested in is social engineering on an international scale or maybe it's just so they can massage their own superior conscience.

so... which bits?

Careful bish, shark fishing is a dangerous sport.

[thebish]

look, Hoboh.. you are clearly well read on the Human Rights Act - and it always sounds like you want to get rid of bits... often I think you want to scrap it altogether - but today you said you are in favour of human rights..

so - genuine question..

which bits of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would you keep and which would you scrap?

[Hoboh]

look, Hoboh.. you are clearly well read on the Human Rights Act - and it always sounds like you want to get rid of bits... often I think you want to scrap it altogether - but today you said you are in favour of human rights..

so - genuine question..

which bits of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would you keep and which would you scrap?

Ok, I will get back to you on this one soon. Right now my priority is a bench near Marks & Sparks for an early brekkie.

[William the White]

look, Hoboh.. you are clearly well read on the Human Rights Act - and it always sounds like you want to get rid of bits... often I think you want to scrap it altogether - but today you said you are in favour of human rights..

so - genuine question..

which bits of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would you keep and which would you scrap?

Ok, I will get back to you on this one soon. Right now my priority is a bench near Marks & Sparks for an early brekkie.

nice glass of Strongbow?

[TANGODANCER]

look, Hoboh.. you are clearly well read on the Human Rights Act - and it always sounds like you want to get rid of bits... often I think you want to scrap it altogether - but today you said you are in favour of human rights..

so - genuine question..

which bits of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would you keep and which would you scrap?

Ok, I will get back to you on this one soon. Right now my priority is a bench near Marks & Sparks for an early brekkie.

nice glass of Strongbow?

Strongbow Will? With Marks and Sparks no more than 75 paces from the cider empire of the north?

[Montreal Wanderer]

look, Hoboh.. you are clearly well read on the Human Rights Act - and it always sounds like you want to get rid of bits... often I think you want to scrap it altogether - but today you said you are in favour of human rights..

so - genuine question..

which bits of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would you keep and which would you scrap?

Ok, I will get back to you on this one soon. Right now my priority is a bench near Marks & Sparks for an early brekkie.

nice glass of Strongbow?

Strongbow Will? With Marks and Sparks no more than 75 paces from the cider empire of the north?

What's that? Crazy Horse's garage?