The Politics Thread

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Some interesting points Mummy and I think the sentiment behind it is something existing schools could pursue through appealing to the local community and contacts of PTAs and boards of governers etc.

My view of education is fairly simple. I believe all kids of whatever background should have access to a high standard of education. It shouldn't come down to what the parents can afford. Essentially all kids should have an equal chance to make their way in life and by having equal quality of education it means the talented can achieve. As LK has said. Education is just one of those things that costs money and as a country we should be investing as much as is reasonably possible. We should be investing in not just fancy facilities and courses, but in people. We need to spend the money more wisely rather than keep chucking money at it for political one-ups.

One thing I would do is add an extra year on for the ones that currently leave at 16. In this year the focus is on giving these young adults help to adjust to adult life. My experience of recruitment is that a significant number are ill equipped to apply for a job and even lack basic skills that any employer is looking for. For those going on to A-levels etc the same skills could be covered as part of their courses.

Most importantly, I'd ban media studies

[thebish]

Let's try a bit of a thought experiment, given that it wouldn't take a lot of things to be radically different for me to want to be a teacher...

I've got some ideas for running schools. I think the way we do things now leaves children far too detached from the world of work. This is not because I think school is about training for jobs, rather than helping children develop as people so that they can live happy, fulfilled and productive lives. I don't. Mainly what I would like to achieve is to fire aspiration and ambition in kids and to encourage them to appreciate what an opportunity school is.

So one thing I would like to do across my small portfolio of schools is to have an expanded version of the 'Teach First' scheme that lets graduates with good grades from top universities have a fast-tracked route into teaching, while they work out whether that's what they want to do. Some will stay on, some won't, as in the actual scheme, but I think giving kids access to bright, enthusiastic, high-achieving graduates would be a good thing.

you're describing something like "Jamie's Dream School"...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvan ... klash.html

the government doesn't want to do this. IIRC - they want to fast-track (parachute?) ex-soldiers into the teaching profession instead...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Let's try a bit of a thought experiment, given that it wouldn't take a lot of things to be radically different for me to want to be a teacher...

I've got some ideas for running schools. I think the way we do things now leaves children far too detached from the world of work. This is not because I think school is about training for jobs, rather than helping children develop as people so that they can live happy, fulfilled and productive lives. I don't. Mainly what I would like to achieve is to fire aspiration and ambition in kids and to encourage them to appreciate what an opportunity school is.

So one thing I would like to do across my small portfolio of schools is to have an expanded version of the 'Teach First' scheme that lets graduates with good grades from top universities have a fast-tracked route into teaching, while they work out whether that's what they want to do. Some will stay on, some won't, as in the actual scheme, but I think giving kids access to bright, enthusiastic, high-achieving graduates would be a good thing.

you're describing something like "Jamie's Dream School"...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvan ... klash.html

the government doesn't want to do this. IIRC - they want to fast-track (parachute?) ex-soldiers into the teaching profession instead...

That's a television gimmick that has absolutely nothing to do with my vision for schools.

Have a look into 'Teach First' - lots of people I know have been involved with the scheme and I think it's a fantastic idea. I disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching.

And I do not speak for government policy - I'm just offering a few of my own ideas for a model that uses a combination of state and parent funding that I think need not necessarily run a loss.

We haven't even got on to my ideas for commercial exploitation of my schools' assets at evenings and weekends etc.

[thebish]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

[thebish]

We haven't even got on to my ideas for commercials exploitation of my schoolss assets at evenings and weekends etc.

i'd certainly agree with you that on the face of it there is vast untapped potential here - huge, well equipped facilities lying dormant evenings & weekends (and summer holidays). I'd be quite than happy to see money spent on employing LEA - or even local-level school staff who are employed to maximise that revenue... but (to my mind) that doesn't need for-profit private running of schools - I'd far rather see the money raised from publically-owned school buildings going back into teaching than into private owners' or shareholders' pockets..

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

I can't see how any of this relates to Starkey, but carry on...

The link between what I am suggesting and what Gove is possibly considering is that if I could use the venture capitalists and hedge fund managers that I am now used to working with in my day job to help me realise my vision for running schools, it opens up the possibility of me trying some ideas that are not currently being taken on in education. The fact the state isn't running schools as I am suggesting, or floating my ideas, is precisely why I would like the opportunity to have a go.

[thebish]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

I can't how any of this relates to Starkey, but carry on...

i take it you didn't follow the link then....

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

I can't how any of this relates to Starkey, but carry on...

i take it you didn't follow the link then....

I clicked on it briefly and remember the incident. I just don't see how the Dream School, a celebrity reality TV show, has anything to do with any of what I have suggested?

(BTW, would you kindly stop quoting me before I have picked up my typos!)

[Lord Kangana]

Surely increasing the use of school equipment/space etc etc would merely increase wear and tear, insurance, staffing? In which case, you may increase turnover, but if you're not increasing profitability, then whats the point? The only way you could squeeze that would inevitably lead to reduced usage of school property/space/equipment/time by the very people it was primarily put there for. Ie, kids.

[BWFC_Insane]

Surely increasing the use of school equipment/space etc etc would merely increase wear and tear, insurance, staffing? In which case, you may increase turnover, but if you're not increasing profitability, then whats the point? The only way you could squeeze that would inevitably lead to reduced usage of school property/space/equipment/time by the very people it was primarily put there for. Ie, kids.

But presumably you run it at sufficient margin out of school hours to ensure profitability?

[thebish]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

I can't how any of this relates to Starkey, but carry on...

The link between what I am suggesting and what Gove is possibly considering is that if I could use the venture capitalists and hedge fund managers that I am now used to working with in my day job to help me realise my vision for running schools, it opens up the possibility of me trying some ideas that are not currently being taken on in education. The fact the state isn't running schools as I am suggesting, or floating my ideas, is precisely why I would like the opportunity to have a go.

whilst, of course, i can see your excitement at the possibility of experimenting and trying new stuff... education is summat kids only really get one shot at. If, say, a bunch of well-meaning industrialists bought a franchise of schools with many a high-minded idea - and after 2 years it all went tits-up and the finance fell apart (as we have seen is certainly possible!) - what then? it's not the same as a simple failed start-up business where you lick your wounds and move on to the next idea... would you be expecting the state to step in and give you a safety net?

i'm with you with the frustration with the stultifying effect that governments can have on education - and the short-termism that drives teachers mad (a product of our 5yr. parliaments and education secretaries wanting to make their mark) - but i'm not yet ready to take the risk of converting our school system into a privatised for-profit enterprise for well-meaning entrepreneurs... for another thing - experience shows that this can also bring madness to the curriculum - Creationism... for instance...

I suspect that the idea of generating vast profits from school property at weekends and evenings is much more marginal than at first thought... for one thing it would increase your maintenance costs - for another - I suspect profits are only really achievable in desirable areas - which would leave thousands of unprofitable school sites in place where businessmen don't want to hold conferences or go on team-bonding days.... also - similarly to the points I made earlier - the profit motive here would (inevitably) lead to a squeezing of the time the buildings were used for (wasteful) education purposes - in favour of (profitable) commercial usage... this doesn't obviously help our education system...

[Lord Kangana]

BWFCi ...How do you guarantee that? One of the major stumbling blocks nobody seems to want to contemplate here is that the private and public sectors exist for a reason. You're suggesting that an important institution like a school take a business risk. Businesses go bust all the time, its the nature of the beast. I don't know if you saw the documentary last year about those scheisters who leased computers to schools through very complex finance arrangements, and then effectively bankrupted loads of primary schools. Because individual schools were encouraged to "enter the marketplace" (read fend for themselves) The whole process is already lacking in credibility, I just find it difficult to believe people want more of something that is so obviously and fundamentally flawed.

[BWFC_Insane]

BWFCi ...How do you guarantee that? One of the major stumbling blocks nobody seems to want to contemplate here is that the private and public sectors exist for a reason. You're suggesting that an important institution like a school take a business risk. Businesses go bust all the time, its the nature of the beast. I don't know if you saw the documentary last year about those scheisters who leased computers to schools through very complex finance arrangements, and then effectively bankrupted loads of primary schools. Because individual schools were encouraged to "enter the marketplace" (read fend for themselves) The whole process is already lacking in credibility, I just find it difficult to believe people want more of something that is so obviously and fundamentally flawed.

I'm not particularly arguing for it. I think there is a way of possibly doing it. There is a lot of land/space/facilities that lie dormant in school holidays and weekends. Ever parked in the school at the top of the hill at Ewood park for example? They charge a fiver a pop have a few people there to manage the payments and pack the cars in. Every home game. Money goes back to the school. That must be profitable and ultimately good for the school long run.

Ok that is a simple and unusual example. But schools have pools, tennis courts, gyms, sports fields, halls etc etc all going idle a lot of the time. I think it's possible for schools to maximise the use of these make a bit of money for the school without taking a huge risk.

I haven't seen any business plans for it, and don't work in a school so there may well be obstacles and risks that I'm unaware of. Most definitely are. But common sense says it would be a possibility in many cases.

[thebish]

BWFCi ...How do you guarantee that? One of the major stumbling blocks nobody seems to want to contemplate here is that the private and public sectors exist for a reason. You're suggesting that an important institution like a school take a business risk. Businesses go bust all the time, its the nature of the beast. I don't know if you saw the documentary last year about those scheisters who leased computers to schools through very complex finance arrangements, and then effectively bankrupted loads of primary schools. Because individual schools were encouraged to "enter the marketplace" (read fend for themselves) The whole process is already lacking in credibility, I just find it difficult to believe people want more of something that is so obviously and fundamentally flawed.

I'm not particularly arguing for it. I think there is a way of possibly doing it. There is a lot of land/space/facilities that lie dormant in school holidays and weekends. Ever parked in the school at the top of the hill at Ewood park for example? They charge a fiver a pop have a few people there to manage the payments and pack the cars in. Every home game. Money goes back to the school. That must be profitable and ultimately good for the school long run.

Ok that is a simple and unusual example. But schools have pools, tennis courts, gyms, sports fields, halls etc etc all going idle a lot of the time. I think it's possible for schools to maximise the use of these make a bit of money for the school without taking a huge risk.

I haven't seen any business plans for it, and don't work in a school so there may well be obstacles and risks that I'm unaware of. Most definitely are. But common sense says it would be a possibility in many cases.

schools already do this to some extent... a SCHOOL within the LEA operating within our current system of state-education making a bit of money (for the school) by judicious use of it's assets is not what is at issue... what is at issue is allowing private companies to take control of our state-schools and run them for profit - the use of the land/assets being a carrot to tempt them in...

[BWFC_Insane]

BWFCi ...How do you guarantee that? One of the major stumbling blocks nobody seems to want to contemplate here is that the private and public sectors exist for a reason. You're suggesting that an important institution like a school take a business risk. Businesses go bust all the time, its the nature of the beast. I don't know if you saw the documentary last year about those scheisters who leased computers to schools through very complex finance arrangements, and then effectively bankrupted loads of primary schools. Because individual schools were encouraged to "enter the marketplace" (read fend for themselves) The whole process is already lacking in credibility, I just find it difficult to believe people want more of something that is so obviously and fundamentally flawed.

I'm not particularly arguing for it. I think there is a way of possibly doing it. There is a lot of land/space/facilities that lie dormant in school holidays and weekends. Ever parked in the school at the top of the hill at Ewood park for example? They charge a fiver a pop have a few people there to manage the payments and pack the cars in. Every home game. Money goes back to the school. That must be profitable and ultimately good for the school long run.

Ok that is a simple and unusual example. But schools have pools, tennis courts, gyms, sports fields, halls etc etc all going idle a lot of the time. I think it's possible for schools to maximise the use of these make a bit of money for the school without taking a huge risk.

I haven't seen any business plans for it, and don't work in a school so there may well be obstacles and risks that I'm unaware of. Most definitely are. But common sense says it would be a possibility in many cases.

schools already do this to some extent... a SCHOOL within the LEA operating within our current system of state-education making a bit of money (for the school) by judicious use of it's assets is not what is at issue... what is at issue is allowing private companies to take control of our state-schools and run them for profit - the use of the land/assets being a carrot to tempt them in...

I know. I don't think that private companies should take control of state-schools. Categorically not.

But equally if there are ways to utilise facilities and make money for the school that would require a partnership with a private company then potentially that might be worth exploring IMO. The school should still own it's facilities and essentially run itself for the school time. But if out of hours a private company wanted to run stuff in the school I think there are ways that could be facilitated that would be profitable for the school, but with minimal risk.

I realise this is going a bit off topic. Sorry.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

i'm with you with the frustration with the stultifying effect that governments can have on education - and the short-termism that drives teachers mad (a product of our 5yr. parliaments and education secretaries wanting to make their mark) - but i'm not yet ready to take the risk of converting our school system into a privatised for-profit enterprise for well-meaning entrepreneurs... for another thing - experience shows that this can also bring madness to the curriculum - Creationism... for instance...

I do not want to privatise the education system.

I just wish some of what I have described were possible at the edges of the system, hopefully with some positive knock-on effects back into the wider system.

And I'm not in favour of the schools within my vision setting their own curriculum and exams.

[Gooner Girl]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

Educations loss. You'd make an awesome teacher.

[Athers]

I know that quite a few big companies would be up for sending their staff into schools. My company already does this, although more in Primary Schools under the banner of communication skills (it's a telco). We get 3 days full pay for volunteering per year.

I have a mate who is a proper train engineer, his brother an F1 designer... I'd hope such things would appeal to young'uns, even moreso if the person went to the same school or is from the same area.

I always struggle on teacher's salaries/promotions and the links with performance. I know you must have a passion for teaching to teach, but if you're a top graduate you might be in for a 10 year slog before you match the salary you could get from doing something else in half that time.. Why would a 21 year old choose such a path with all the well-known financial mountains which young people have to climb these days. They could choose it at a private school I suppose.. It's not easy.

[Montreal Wanderer]

yes - it was an opportunity to have a poke at Starkey, though - and why waste such an opportunity!

people I know have done this also - I have no objection to that - it's not the idea that Gove is floating! I also strongly disagree with Monty that all good graduates should have a higher calling than high school teaching. I'm a graduate - and was for a very long time very tempted to become a maths teacher... if I were not doing my current job then teaching would be my next option - no question...

Educations loss. You'd make an awesome teacher.

I may not have been clear here. I assume all high school teachers have an undergraduate degree (B.A. of B. Ed.) as they do here. I was talking more about the brilliant graduate who goes on to advanced (post-graduate) study. The PhD is a requirement for all professors hired at my university. Nothing in my experience in the last forty plus years leads me to believe that having a doctoral degree makes one a good teacher. Rather the reverse. While there are good teachers at the University level, most are at best average and quite often more interested in research than in teaching. They do not understand students having difficulty with subjects that come easily to them, and they consider the onus is on the student to learn. It is different at the high school level where one deals with a whole range of student abilities (not just those who could get to university). Here the teacher needs a different set of skills, and have the ability to motivate and inspire. They also measure success quite differently. If a high school student fails, it may be perceived in part to be the teacher's fault because the principle role is to get students through and not to drop out. Conversely if university students fail it is their fault. Put another way, teaching at the university level is a profession, while teaching at the high school level is a vocation. I still don't think one should put people with PhDs to teaching high school, though I would certainly like to see well-motivated university graduates in the role.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I know that quite a few big companies would be up for sending their staff into schools. My company already does this, although more in Primary Schools under the banner of communication skills (it's a telco). We get 3 days full pay for volunteering per year.

I have a mate who is a proper train engineer, his brother an F1 designer... I'd hope such things would appeal to young'uns, even moreso if the person went to the same school or is from the same area.

I always struggle on teacher's salaries/promotions and the links with performance. I know you must have a passion for teaching to teach, but if you're a top graduate you might be in for a 10 year slog before you match the salary you could get from doing something else in half that time.. Why would a 21 year old choose such a path with all the well-known financial mountains which young people have to climb these days. They could choose it at a private school I suppose.. It's not easy.

A good contribution, as always!