Spotty's Little Known Facts

[thebish]

the various games that have "football" in the name - rugby football, football, american football... these have the prefix "foot" not because you use your foot to kick the ball - but rather because they are played on foot (by commoners) rather than on horseback (toff sports)

[bobo the clown]

the various games that have "football" in the name - rugby football, football, american football... these have the prefix "foot" not because you use your foot to kick the ball - but rather because they are played on foot (by commoners) rather than on horseback (toff sports)

Ah ... like foot-cricket and foot-basketball.

You know, you do take your socialistic bllx to extremes most of the time don't you Bish.

[thebish]

Although the accepted etymology of the word football, or "foot ball", originated in reference to the action of a foot kicking a ball, this may be a false etymology. An alternative, controversial, explanation has it that the word originally referred to a variety of games in medieval Europe, which were played on foot.

it's a matter of debate... and without a time machine I guess we will never achieve certainty, but it is well enough attested not to simply be dismissed as the extremes of socialistic bllx....

you will find the latter etymology in:

ICONS Online (commissioned by the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport; no date) "History of Football";
Michael Scott Moore, "Naming the Beautiful Game: It's Called Soccer" (Der Spiegel, June 7, 2006);
and Professional Football Researchers Association (U.S.A.), (no date) "A Freendly Kinde of Fight: The Origins of Football to 1633".

I'm sure you have incontrovertible evidence of another etymology to share with us, though...

[Lord Kangana]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

[thebish]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

it's not.. it's bobo talking out of his capacious arse!

[bobo the clown]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

it's not.. it's bobo talking out of his capacious arse!

You don't see that is a 'right on' interpretation ... that there were'toff' sports and 'working man' sports and that by clear inference one was worthwhile and one was not ? No ??

... and that was the thrust of Bish's post ?

Ah well.

[thebish]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

it's not.. it's bobo talking out of his capacious arse!

You don't see that is a 'right on' interpretation ... that there were'toff' sports and 'working man' sports and that by clear inference one was worthwhile and one was not ? No ??

... and that was the thrust of Bish's post ?

Ah well.

why have you put "working man" in quotes?

do you have any actual argument to offer about the etymology of the name "football"?

i neither said nor implied anything about anything being "worthwhile" or not

[Prufrock]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

it's not.. it's bobo talking out of his capacious arse!

You don't see that is a 'right on' interpretation ... that there were'toff' sports and 'working man' sports and that by clear inference one was worthwhile and one was not ? No ??

... and that was the thrust of Bish's post ?

Ah well.

Er...no! I thought it was a quite interesting, vaguely plausible explanation. It makes a shit load more sense than any other explanation I've ever heard for, say, Aussie Rules Football!

[bobo the clown]

How the f*ck is that socialist?

it's not.. it's bobo talking out of his capacious arse!

You don't see that is a 'right on' interpretation ... that there were'toff' sports and 'working man' sports and that by clear inference one was worthwhile and one was not ? No ??

... and that was the thrust of Bish's post ?

Ah well.

Er...no! I thought it was a quite interesting, vaguely plausible explanation. It makes a shit load more sense than any other explanation I've ever heard for, say, Aussie Rules Football!

The etymology is simple enough and doesn't need, deserve or benefit from a politicised twist.

Football is where a ball is kicked with the, err, foot.

Rugby football was a development from that and the ball remained kicked ... by a foot. Remember the initial aim was to get the ball over the end-line which then gave a kicker "a try" at kicking a goal.

American football was a development of rugby football.

None of this is difficult.

[Prufrock]

That's what I'd always thought. I don't see how it's somehow 'socialist' to suggest a different idea! Soccerfootball back then was very 'working class'; it doesn't seem particularly trotskyite to bring it up and a trivia thread is all!

[Montreal Wanderer]

Although the accepted etymology of the word football, or "foot ball", originated in reference to the action of a foot kicking a ball, this may be a false etymology. An alternative, controversial, explanation has it that the word originally referred to a variety of games in medieval Europe, which were played on foot.

it's a matter of debate... and without a time machine I guess we will never achieve certainty, but it is well enough attested not to simply be dismissed as the extremes of socialistic bllx....

you will find the latter etymology in:

ICONS Online (commissioned by the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport; no date) "History of Football";
Michael Scott Moore, "Naming the Beautiful Game: It's Called Soccer" (Der Spiegel, June 7, 2006);
and Professional Football Researchers Association (U.S.A.), (no date) "A Freendly Kinde of Fight: The Origins of Football to 1633".

I'm sure you have incontrovertible evidence of another etymology to share with us, though...

I found the latter etymology you mention in Wikipedia but the same article notes:

In 1363, King Edward III of England issued a proclamation banning "...handball, football, or hockey; coursing and cock-fighting, or other such idle games",[5] showing that "football" was being differentiated from games as they involved other parts of the body, such as handball, not simply because it was played on foot.

Though the distinction made between hand and foot as parts of the body is not incontrovertible, it does tend to favour the Oxford English Dictionary version. Oddly though the OED does not mention a 1363 proclamation under the etymology of 'hockey' or any of the other sports.

On the sociological side of things I note the lower classes (labourers) were forbidden from playing footie and other such games.

1536 Proclam. Henry VIII agaynst Unlaufull Games 22 Apr. (single sheet) , Laborers..shuld..vtterly leaue playeng at the bailes, as wel handball as foteball, and other games called coytes, dyce, bowling, & kailes.

[Lord Kangana]

Owing to a lack of knowledge, partly attributable to a dearth of Polo clubs round our way, I'm still confused as to how calling Polo, for example, "a toff sport" is politicising anything,when up until recently (since, I don't know, say roughly around the time of the creation of the welfare state) the ownership of horses, and their use in sport, was pretty much on whole confined to the upper, wealthy and/or landowning classes. Who were in a very small minority. Colloquially it would be understood by many if they were referred to as "toffs" that this is the class being referred to. A point of historical, etymological and social interest maybe, but I'm still bemused how that is in anyway political.

[bobo the clown]

Owing to a lack of knowledge, partly attributable to a dearth of Polo clubs round our way, I'm still confused as to how calling Polo, for example, "a toff sport" is politicising anything,when up until recently (since, I don't know, say roughly around the time of the creation of the welfare state) the ownership of horses, and their use in sport, was pretty much on whole confined to the upper, wealthy and/or landowning classes. Who were in a very small minority. Colloquially it would be understood by many if they were referred to as "toffs" that this is the class being referred to. A point of historical, etymological and social interest maybe, but I'm still bemused how that is in anyway political.

... and class, as all that's inferred by it ... isn't political ?

Anyway, it's not worth a fall out. I just enjoy tweaking Bish's tail now and again, that's all.

[thebish]

Owing to a lack of knowledge, partly attributable to a dearth of Polo clubs round our way, I'm still confused as to how calling Polo, for example, "a toff sport" is politicising anything,when up until recently (since, I don't know, say roughly around the time of the creation of the welfare state) the ownership of horses, and their use in sport, was pretty much on whole confined to the upper, wealthy and/or landowning classes. Who were in a very small minority. Colloquially it would be understood by many if they were referred to as "toffs" that this is the class being referred to. A point of historical, etymological and social interest maybe, but I'm still bemused how that is in anyway political.

... and class, as all that's inferred by it ... isn't political ?

Anyway, it's not worth a fall out. I just enjoy tweaking Bish's tail now and again, that's all.

troll!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

feck* Hell.

I've threatened it in the past.
I will do a history of Football/Wanderers article. It will cut out the bollix spouted here, and sorry Bish, but that is BOLLOX.

[thebish]

feck Hell.

I've threatened it in the past.
I will do a history of Football/Wanderers article. It will cut out the bollix spouted here, and sorry Bish, but that is BOLLOX.

nahhh - true fact!

[Montreal Wanderer]

feck Hell.

I've threatened it in the past.
I will do a history of Football/Wanderers article. It will cut out the bollix spouted here, and sorry Bish, but that is BOLLOX.

nahhh - true fact!

Finding this interesting I have checked the matter a little further. It didn't have so much to do with class as to keeping the military advantage in the 100 years war. The proclamation did not ban football but asked the Sheriffs to encourage archery as an alternative pastime. The summary reads:

Folio cxi b.

Writ to the Sheriffs to make proclamation encouraging the practice of archery by way of a pastime in place of football, cock-fighting, &c. Witness the King at Westminster, 1 June, 37 Edward III. [A.D. 1363].

I'll check if I can find the full text.

[bobo the clown]

I'll check if I can find the full text.

No, Monty ... don't. Really, don't.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'll check if I can find the full text.

No, Monty ... don't. Really, don't.

Too late - it interested me so I was able to find it. However, don't worry - I won't share it here so feel free to continue in blissful ignorance.

[thebish]

there was an old clown who lived in blissful ignorance
i don't know why he chose to live in blissful ignorance
perhaps he'll die?