Dougie Freedman - Ten Months On

[Lord Kangana]

If we can take this down a sensible route....

I thought thats what we were doing?

[BWFC_Insane]

On the point of fitness, I do recall in the summer of '96 seeing Tomo road running (if I remember rightly down Chorley New), and various reports in the papers that the squad generally were determined to be ready from the off for the new season. I remember seeing the squad doing warm ups on the first day at Port Vale, all fresh with their crew cuts and looking much fitter than they had the previous season.

I'm sure much of that was down to individual effort, as much as they'd been told what to do (Todd, as I recall, wasn't "renowned for his fitnees work" - they 'd all pschologically bought into the ethos and imperative of promotion, and it showed.

So in summary? I'm not sure, maybe you can lead a horse to water?

If we can take this down a sensible route....I'm sure the majority of football players are "fit" in terms of being able to run a long way or having the right body fat to muscle ratios etc. I'm sure that the diets and all that are on the whole vastly improved.

The thing now is presumably the fine tuning of that fitness. For example Andy Murray trains in a way that maximises his chances on a tennis court. I'm sure he could run marathons if he chose to, but presumably tennis is about lots of repeated sprints, bursts of running and changes in direction, and of course strength. So he works tirelessly on those aspects. He does 400M drills, short sprint drills, work where he is constantly changing direction with resistance (a rope attached to a machine). And has a dietary plan that goes alongside it

So the thing is to get footballers tuned in the same way. They need to be fit as a basic but then they need that few percent on top that optimises them for the sort of work they do in the field every day. Which isn't running twenty miles in one go, but short bursts of running, sometimes intense over 90 minutes of action (with a break in the middle).

Footballers in general now seem to talk diets but whether they really buy into it and adhere to the diets I'm not totally convinced. Mark Davies spotted taking a burger king meal on the coach a year or two ago would suggest possibly not. Certainly not in the same way that tennis players and athletes seem to commit to such things.

The other trouble with football is that it's not a "one rule fits all". When Allardyce first saw Nolan he thought he didn't have enough upper body strength. So he got him to do a load of gym work and build that up. But he built a lot of muscle that meant he found it harder to get around the pitch and lost some of his previous athleticism and stamina, so they had to strip back the gym work. For example.

Diet obviously plays its part, but only to an extent (assuming he doesn't eat them all the time!). Didn't Bolt infamously have a McDonald's right before his Olympic gold? And many races before that too?

Yep it's a part of it. I mean you have exceptions like Djokovic who puts his rise from top 5 player to multiple grand slam champion down quite significantly to his new gluten free diet.

I suspect Bolt's muscle to fat ratio is much higher than for more endurance athletes so he may get away with the extra calories.

I don't think its about never having a McDonalds, but I'm guessing they have to buy into it.

Murray for example early in his career just ate shit. And he now says that he can see how it reduced his performance.

I'd be interested to know where the majority of football really is in comparison to how athletes, tennis players and the like train and the science and rigorous scrutiny applied. I genuinely don't know, though perception seems that its still a way behind, but catching up some.

[Lord Kangana]

There was a sports journalist on Newsnight a few weeks ago saying that football in this coiuntry, despite the "influx of foreigners changing our habits" is still in the Dark Ages compared to other top-performing sports like cycling and athletics. The sheer volume of money in football disincentives radical change.

[BWFC_Insane]

There was a sports journalist on Newsnight a few weeks ago saying that football in this coiuntry, despite the "influx of foreigners changing our habits" is still in the Dark Ages compared to other top-performing sports like cycling and athletics. The sheer volume of money in football disincentives radical change.

You'd think it would be the opposite. Given the cost of assembling a top side you'd think clubs wouldn't blink at any chance they had to gain an extra edge over the opposition?

[Bruce Rioja]

Alan Shearer used to eat grilled chicken and baked beans before a game so I decided to give it a go myself. I was still shit.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

No doubt any day soon football will be subjected to such radical quackery as the "inner chimp" model in our push to catch up with athletics and cycling. Oh, what do you mean Steve Peters's working with Liverpool already?

[BWFC_Insane]

No doubt any day soon football will be subjected to such radical quackery as the "inner chimp" model in our push to catch up with athletics and cycling. Oh, what do you mean Steve Peters's working with Liverpool already?

Is it a bad thing though, to look at what successful sports have done, the techniques they've used and see what can be applied to football?

Genuine question.

[Lord Kangana]

There was a sports journalist on Newsnight a few weeks ago saying that football in this coiuntry, despite the "influx of foreigners changing our habits" is still in the Dark Ages compared to other top-performing sports like cycling and athletics. The sheer volume of money in football disincentives radical change.

You'd think it would be the opposite. Given the cost of assembling a top side you'd think clubs wouldn't blink at any chance they had to gain an extra edge over the opposition?

Yes, but human beings are more likely to say " ooh, look at all this cash, we must be doing something right, lets pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves a big fat payrise".

[Lost Leopard Spot]

No doubt any day soon football will be subjected to such radical quackery as the "inner chimp" model in our push to catch up with athletics and cycling. Oh, what do you mean Steve Peters's working with Liverpool already?

Is it a bad thing though, to look at what successful sports have done, the techniques they've used and see what can be applied to football?

Genuine question.

It is when it's hocus pocus.

[Lord Kangana]

But is it hocus-pocus when it comes to say cycling in this country? Theres a fairly demonstrable series of events (facilities, funding etc etc) that have improved cycling beyond recognition. Lets be clear, you still need the raw materials, ie good athletes, but the correct use of resources can maximise that asset. After that last sentence, I really should go in to management consulting, shouldn't I?

[BWFC_Insane]

There was a sports journalist on Newsnight a few weeks ago saying that football in this coiuntry, despite the "influx of foreigners changing our habits" is still in the Dark Ages compared to other top-performing sports like cycling and athletics. The sheer volume of money in football disincentives radical change.

You'd think it would be the opposite. Given the cost of assembling a top side you'd think clubs wouldn't blink at any chance they had to gain an extra edge over the opposition?

Yes, but human beings are more likely to say " ooh, look at all this cash, we must be doing something right, lets pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves a big fat payrise".

So who is at fault? Managers for not wanting to change the status quo? I personally think the effect of cash is more at the player level?

Young players coming into the game get offered fat contracts. Say £25K a week at 17/18 at the top level. They then do a bit better for a year or two and get £50K or whatever a week. Where is the incentive for them to get better? Get fitter? If someone says to them, ok Tyrone/Theo/Wayne/Rio we're going to put you on this new diet cos Andy Murray has boosted his fitness through it and you can only eat sushi at lunch and wholewheat pasta (this is made up) in the evening and a protein drink in the morning. Or whatever it is, double sessions, extra gym work, psychology whatever it may be. Is the drive really there in those players to buy into it and believe in it when at 21 they've already earned more than they would have done in their lifetimes if they couldn't kick a ball?

Athletes have that drive, automatically in most cases because they've only got to the level they have through their individual work and generally are fecking skint until they become famous.

Tennis players are the same, if you don't have the drive and ambition you won't get that far in the first place.

But footballers are different here, at least now. Before they even win a solitary medal they're earning in many cases a fortune. So even if you have the greatest plan in the world it requires them wanting to do it. And financially at least, at the top end of the game, there is just such little incentive for players to go outside their comfort zones.

[Lord Kangana]

Well yes. I just said all that in a sentence though.

[StaffsTrotter]

But is it hocus-pocus when it comes to say cycling in this country? Theres a fairly demonstrable series of events (facilities, funding etc etc) that have improved cycling beyond recognition. Lets be clear, you still need the raw materials, ie good athletes, but the correct use of resources can maximise that asset. After that last sentence, I really should go in to management consulting, shouldn't I?

all a bit hazy but there was a radio programme a few months ago, where some of chaps behind the cycling performance revolution were talking about work they done in some african country and looking to set up national teams. Besides the point about the kids willing to walk miles to take part in the trails, the other nugget that stuck was that this chap said he reckoned after 2/3 hours of tests they could tell whether someone had the necessary to be a success

[BWFC_Insane]

Well yes. I just said all that in a sentence though.

Fair enough, but I think clubs have the incentive. It's getting the buy in from players that is the issue.

Why is that different abroad? Cultural?

[Bruce Rioja]

Not geralising or owt then BWFC-I? All footballers are a bad lot that look to eat shit and only train because they have to?!

[BWFC_Insane]

Not geralising or owt then BWFC-I? All footballers are a bad lot that look to eat shit and only train because they have to?!

Yeah of course it is generalising. But as LK has said football in this country in the opinion of many is a long way behind the developments of other sports that have been successful, and seemingly behind football in other European countries.

So was exploring possible reasons for that.

[StaffsTrotter]

I don't think you can become a professional sportsperson of any kind without being highly motivated and a strong competitor - in addition to the requisite skills and athleticism

[Lord Kangana]

To answer both of you, I think its more a cultural than individual phenomenon. David Beckham is a prime example of someone who was very diligent about his career as an athlete - and he's English, but it has to be borne in mind that there is a different approach to football in this country than to one in most continental countries. Again, that can have positives and negatives (the rumour that Juventus players were constantly in the pharmacists office in Turin under club instruction, in the nineties, is persistent).

This isn't necessarily a revelation, there are quite a few foreign footballers who have commented on the very different approach in this country.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

But is it hocus-pocus when it comes to say cycling in this country? Theres a fairly demonstrable series of events (facilities, funding etc etc) that have improved cycling beyond recognition. Lets be clear, you still need the raw materials, ie good athletes, but the correct use of resources can maximise that asset. After that last sentence, I really should go in to management consulting, shouldn't I?

If asked this very question say four years ago, I may well have been pointed towards a certain book called "It's not about the Bike". No it bloody well wasn't was it? I really don't think footballers either need nor should go down the up-to-the-gills-in-drugs, diets, and/or psycho-babble therapy.

[Lord Kangana]

A discussion about sports science is a bit of a non-starter if you consider to be psycho babble, though, isn't it?