Dougie Freedman - Ten Months On

[BWFC_Insane]

I think I'm getting LLS=Gary Megson.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Of course it matters. Did it matter that Lance Armstrong gave us a bunch of crap about how he melded his mind in order to win (when in actual fact he took a shed load of drugs). Does it matter that this bloke works with Ronnie O'Sullivan and Jessica Ennis and Steve Redgrave and we are supposed to think it's his techniques that are helping them to win - they are winners because they are talented not because he's cleared their minds of some mythical inner chimp (not that poor Ronnie seems to have benefited much in the permanent clearance of inner chimpdom even now). If you believe in honesty, truth and science - then it matters.

My point is that THOSE people say he "helped". They are not pinning their success onto him.

But they think he helped. So even if it is only a placebo effect that makes people feel calmer or more in control or whatever, does it matter if they feel it is helping?

And psychology plays a big part in sport. Plenty of very talented people haven't coped with situations well and have gone on to lose.

Well then I think we are at the nub of our disagreement. You'd be happy for a football club to pay big money to a celebrity quack to perform his magic because it might help. Maybe Coyle thought that getting everybody to participate in table tennis tournaments had an equally placeboic (? placeboid ? placebic?) effect. Who knows. That's my point, who knows? We are no longer in the realm of sports science, we are in the realm of faith healing. You're ok with that, I'm not.

[Lord Kangana]

Placebish.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think I'm getting LLS=Gary Megson.

I'm nowhere near as ugly you cheeky sod.

[StaffsTrotter]

I think I'm getting LLS=Gary Megson.

and you are Dougie Freedman, so who is Owen Coyle ?

[Lord Kangana]

I guess that'll be me.

Anyone for wiff waff?

[BWFC_Insane]

Of course it matters. Did it matter that Lance Armstrong gave us a bunch of crap about how he melded his mind in order to win (when in actual fact he took a shed load of drugs). Does it matter that this bloke works with Ronnie O'Sullivan and Jessica Ennis and Steve Redgrave and we are supposed to think it's his techniques that are helping them to win - they are winners because they are talented not because he's cleared their minds of some mythical inner chimp (not that poor Ronnie seems to have benefited much in the permanent clearance of inner chimpdom even now). If you believe in honesty, truth and science - then it matters.

My point is that THOSE people say he "helped". They are not pinning their success onto him.

But they think he helped. So even if it is only a placebo effect that makes people feel calmer or more in control or whatever, does it matter if they feel it is helping?

And psychology plays a big part in sport. Plenty of very talented people haven't coped with situations well and have gone on to lose.

Well then I think we are at the nub of our disagreement. You'd be happy for a football club to pay big money to a celebrity quack to perform his magic because it might help. Maybe Coyle thought that getting everybody to participate in table tennis tournaments had an equally placeboic (? placeboid ? placebic?) effect. Who knows. That's my point, who knows? We are no longer in the realm of sports science, we are in the realm of faith healing. You're ok with that, I'm not.

He's a qualified psychiatrist. Not some nutter off the street with no qualifications.

And as for paying him loads, in football terms I suspect it is a drop in the ocean.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Placebish.

Placebish now entered it into my spellcheck dictionary.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think I'm getting LLS=Gary Megson.

and you are Dougie Freedman, so who is Owen Coyle ?

Not quite yet! I have a couple of managerial idols and he isn't one. Yet.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

He's a qualified psychiatrist. Not some nutter off the street with no qualifications.

And as for paying him loads, in football terms I suspect it is a drop in the ocean.

I'm presuming you've never hung around with psychiatrists at uni... they are all nutters off the street, the more qualified the nuttier.

[BWFC_Insane]

He's a qualified psychiatrist. Not some nutter off the street with no qualifications.

And as for paying him loads, in football terms I suspect it is a drop in the ocean.

I'm presuming you've never hung around with psychiatrists at uni... they are all nutters off the street, the more qualified the nuttier.

At University aren't they just "doctors"?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

He's a qualified psychiatrist. Not some nutter off the street with no qualifications.

And as for paying him loads, in football terms I suspect it is a drop in the ocean.

I'm presuming you've never hung around with psychiatrists at uni... they are all nutters off the street, the more qualified the nuttier.

At University aren't they just "doctors"?

Nah. Like vets and dentists they are failed doctors. Psychology, and Psychiatry, are separate degree courses to medicine (or they were at my university, things might have changed in the intervening decades).

[BWFC_Insane]

He's a qualified psychiatrist. Not some nutter off the street with no qualifications.

And as for paying him loads, in football terms I suspect it is a drop in the ocean.

I'm presuming you've never hung around with psychiatrists at uni... they are all nutters off the street, the more qualified the nuttier.

At University aren't they just "doctors"?

Nah. Like vets and dentists they are failed doctors. Psychology, and Psychiatry, are separate degree courses to medicine (or they were at my university, things might have changed in the intervening decades).

Psychiatrists have to get a full medical degree, then undergo two years medical training. Then 6 years specialised training in psychiatry.

I think thats been the case for a long long while, though someone may correct me on that.

Psychologists are not medical doctors.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Psychiatrists have to get a full medical degree, then undergo two years medical training. Then 6 years specialised training in psychiatry.

I think thats been the case for a long long while, though someone may correct me on that.

Psychologists are not medical doctors.

Fair enough, I was probably thinking of psychology students. He's still talking twaddle, and the fact he had to dedicate six years following in the illustrious footsteps of Galen in order to talk twaddle annoys me even more.

[Lord Kangana]

Its his 6 years though, not yours. Surely if its twaddle, that would annoy him more? He could get a certificate off the internet and be set up in business by the afternoon if he wanted to.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Its his 6 years though, not yours. Surely if its twaddle, that would annoy him more? He could get a certificate off the internet and be set up in business by the afternoon if he wanted to.

What he's doing, and very successfully too is becoming a celebrity and making money.
He also freely admits that his inner chimp model is just that, a model, and doesn't actually represent the reality of brain functions as we know them (scientifically), and that belief in his system is paramount for the person who is going to benefit from it and that anybody who understands the workings of the brain and therefore sees the flaws in his model will, because their belief will inevitably fail them, gain no benefit from his model. In other words, in order to benefit from Dr Peters principles you must have no understanding of the way the brain really works and must accept his simplistic banal explanations and swallow it whole. You must have faith. Knowledge corrupts. Quackery...

[Lord Kangana]

Your inner monkey feels a bit like a Silver Back today LLS, chill out a little, you'll do yourself some damage.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Your inner monkey feels a bit like a Silver Back today LLS, chill out a little, you'll do yourself some damage.

I'm chilled. Really.

Shall we agree to disagree on this one? I'm off to get a pint and release my inner chimp...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

oh and PS, because of the furious pace that the preceeding took place I note that I failed to respond to some posts, but that was because I was busy answering other stuff, not coz I was ignoring anybody. Apologies for any missed stuff... as I say off for a pint, toodle loo.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that it'll take you from 18th to 1st, but if you're an equally matched side, and it squeezes (and this in an entirely arbitrary figure!) 3% from your team, then it will give better results, no?

Exactly what Allardyce told me about many of his experts: "If they get me an extra 1% it's worth it."

On a side note, lovely to see LK & BWFCi arguing the same side...