A case for Defence (is it really all Zats Fault?)

[Norpig]

I have been reading the posts over the last few weeks, mainly before, during, & after games. Everyone to a man seem to be putting all the blame for our defensive disaster on Zat Knight, is it really all his fault. I thought I would like a full blown debate on this issue!

Burnley (A) 1-1 - the goal we gave away was down to a lack of pace of Wheater this was not Zat fault and I thought on reflection that Wheater did all he could and even managed to get a touch on the ball which made it spin away into the corner of the goal. I was more concerned that Batiste at right back did not track back to cover the far post. We were bombarded throughout this game from crosses on both sides of the field which the 2 centre halves managed to clear for 90% of the time.

Shrewsbury (A) 1-3 - The goal the Shrews scored di go over the top of the middle 2 defenders but all the back four were attempting to play offside and the fella managed to time his run and get in behind. Apart from that we looked comfortable for most of the game.

Reading (H) 1-1 - In this game we never looked like conceding until the penalty which was given away (I still think he was unfortunate) by Wheater again not Zat Knights fault. After the penalty the midfield 2 of Spearing and Medo seemed to go missing and we were overrun in the middle of defence.

Forest (A) 3-0 - I have only seen brief highlights of this match and read various reports so if I am not perfectly accurate I apologise. Goal 1 was a mistake by Zat Knight which he nearly managed to get back and rectify but it was ZK fault. Goal 2 a cross from the left Reid o his own at the back stick IMHO is the Right Backs fault as this was his man therefore, Batistes fault. Goal 3 cross from their right to the back stick onto the diving header of a guy totally unmarked again the fault of the right back.

In my opinion our defensive frailties are caused because our 2 full backs charge up the pitch in order to give us some width as the like of Eagles, CYL, Hall, et al are not true wingers. the problem with this is that Wheater or Knight are moving over as cover leaving the middle of the defence exposed. This should be covered by the 2 defensive midfielders. However, I have noticed that the DMs are not DMs in the true sense as they also join the attack when we are going forward leaving an almighty gap down the middle or on the wings if the 2 CD stay put. We have conceded most of our goals from attacking positions this season.

I think we need to get the full backs to be more conservative in their forward runs or the 2 DMs need to move wide as cover for whoever have gone forward. Lets face it our wide men are never going to track back and be successful so we need to have some sort of cover.

I am just sick and tired of hearing it is Knights fault, its Wheaters fault, it is the back four as a unit and the 2 DMs which need to be sorting out some sort of coherent unit in order to cover for each other as a basis for our attacking force.

Right or wrong this is my opinion, if you would like to agree or disagree I would be interested in the views and I feel better after that rant

[Mar]

I really didn't get the impression that it was Zat Knight's fault at all. I think people were like minded enough to acknowledge Wheater's mistakes as well as Knight's.

I don't think anyone is really bothered about whose fault it is provided the situation gets rectified and we stop shipping needless goals.

[BWFC_Insane]

Another point that escapes people is that Knight was part of the defence that got us from 20th to within an inch of a play-off position last season.

So in short it is not all Knight's fault. He has to take some culpability though, and was partially (in fact majorly) at fault for the Burnley goal as he missed a header that would and should have cleared the ball away from danger.

For me the issue is that centre half is such a critical position. It dictates the defensive line, pushes the team up at the right times and drags them back when necessary. Knight and Wheater are so shaky that I think it upsets the balance elsewhere. Full backs get dragged out of position the midfield end up deep trying to cover and essentially the confidence erodes. I think a firm base makes a huge difference.

Simon Charlton nailed it last week. As he said there are always periods of games you are going to come under pressure in this league. Some more than others. But if you feel the back four is solid and dependable as a team it's easier to ride those times out and go again. As it stands we don't have that feeling so any pressure and you just feel a goal is on its way. You cannot play and win games like that.

Last season pre-Dawson this was what it was like. Struggling through but never convincingly looking like we could keep the opposition out. We've reverted back to that. And it puts a lot of pressure on everything.

Last season we scored more goals (69) than Hull City. 8 more in fact. But they conceded 9 less (we conceded 61). Cardiff in fact scored just 3 more than us, but conceded 16 less.

The season before Reading won the league scoring just 69 goals. Same as us last season, but they conceded just 41. Southampton came second scoring a whopping 85 but crucially only conceding 46.

The year before that QPR only let in 32 goals on their way to the title. Norwich scored 83 letting in 58 (somewhat of an outlier here).

Season before that Newcastle only conceded 35 on their way to the title. Second placed West Brom 48.

The point is that to get out of this division it seems conceding a goal per game or less is required. We don't need a massive improvement in the number we score. In fact we may not be far off where we need to be there at all (based on last season). But we simply cannot concede the number we do. It needs to be sorted.

[Hoboh]

Freedman is hardly inspiring much confidence just now to be honest.
We still seem to be piss poor at locking up the midfield and as bad as ever defensively

I stand 100% behind this statement, there seems to be no 'joined up thinking' at the back and it is costing us big time. Sorry but in my view most of it is fair and square down to the management/coaching and has been since BSA left.

[BWFC_Insane]

Freedman is hardly inspiring much confidence just now to be honest.
We still seem to be piss poor at locking up the midfield and as bad as ever defensively

I stand 100% behind this statement, there seems to be no 'joined up thinking' at the back and it is costing us big time. Sorry but in my view most of it is fair and square down to the management/coaching and has been since BSA left.

The stats with Dawson in the team would suggest there isn't some fundamental organisational issue, but it comes down to the players available.

Using my own eyes, the goals this season are broadly coming down to individual errors rather than teams ripping us to pieces.

[SmokinFrazier]

Another point that escapes people is that Knight was part of the defence that got us from 20th to within an inch of a play-off position last season.

The point people make is that without Knight, we might have been 16th and narrowly got into the play-offs. He has been a part of a few decent partnerships in his time at Bolton but he has regularly been the weak link and if we had someone better in his place, it's logical to assume we'd have done better than we have.

I don't rate Knight, by the way, but he would walk into the majority of teams in the Championship. He's very error prone though and could cost us three points in any game.

Defensively, we are not well drilled enough and make far too many basic mistakes. I think it would be unfair to blame on the individuals in our team when this criticism should be aimed at Freedman. Whenever we let in a goal, we automatically blame the players involved in it, but many of the times we concede, the fault lies with the orders the players have been given. Tactically, we are poor defensively.

[BWFC_Insane]

Another point that escapes people is that Knight was part of the defence that got us from 20th to within an inch of a play-off position last season.

The point people make is that without Knight, we might have been 16th and narrowly got into the play-offs. He has been a part of a few decent partnerships in his time at Bolton but he has regularly been the weak link and if we had someone better in his place, it's logical to assume we'd have done better than we have.

I don't rate Knight, by the way, but he would walk into the majority of teams in the Championship. He's very error prone though and could cost us three points in any game.

Defensively, we are not well drilled enough and make far too many basic mistakes. I think it would be unfair to blame on the individuals in our team when this criticism should be aimed at Freedman. Whenever we let in a goal, we automatically blame the players involved in it, but many of the times we concede, the fault lies with the orders the players have been given. Tactically, we are poor defensively.

1) We can't find out whether we'd be better off without him (though we all suspect we would) as he was signed on a nice 2 year contract and the other centre halves brought into the club are not good enough to displace him.

2) Perhaps you could run us through the goals we've conceded, especially the one at Burnley, the one against Reading and the opening goal at Forest and explain to us how "tactically" we could have prevented them?

[boltonboris]

He's crap

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

He's crap

I'd say this pretty much covers it.

[ChrisC]

He's crap

That's tight on crap

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

He's crap

That's tight on crap

Careful, you don't want to squeeze too hard

[Loyal White]

Two things.
1. Our defence has been crap since Sam left - we can't put the blame solely on Freedman.
2. Why drop Knight? He's probably the best centre-half we have (very worrying admittedly).

[Hoboh]

2001–02 38 09 13 16 44 62 40
2002–03 38 10 14 14 41 51 44
2003–04 38 14 11 13 48 56 53
2004–05 38 16 10 12 49 44 58
2005–06 38 15 11 12 49 41 56
2006–07 38 16 08 14 47 52 56
2007–08 38 09 10 19 36 54 37
2008–09 38 11 08 19 41 53 41
2009–10 38 10 09 19 40 66 36
2010–11 38 12 10 16 52 56 46
2011–12 38 10 06 22 46 77 36
2012–13 46 18 14 14 69 61 68

seems we have never been that good after all keeping them out of our net with a few exceptions

[Harry Genshaw]

His positional play is awful and I don't doubt that when some are blaming full backs for conceded goals, its due to them being dragged elsewhere to cover Zats short comings.

He's too indecisive.

He offers no aerial threat at all.

His distribution is awful.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard folk say "Zat did ok. Ok he was responsible for the 1st/2nd or 3rd goal but other than that he played alright.

He seems to have 1 catastrophic mistake in him per game. Its like employing Titus Bramble but with none of the upside

[malcd1]

His positional play is awful and I don't doubt that when some are blaming full backs for conceded goals, its due to them being dragged elsewhere to cover Zats short comings.

He's too indecisive.

He offers no aerial threat at all.

His distribution is awful.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard folk say "Zat did ok. Ok he was responsible for the 1st/2nd or 3rd goal but other than that he played alright.

He seems to have 1 catastrophic mistake in him per game. Its like employing Titus Bramble but with none of the upside

I was going to make the same comment. He will make a mistake that will give them an excellent chance to score. Zat will either lose the ball or ball watch and leave the man he was supposed to be marking.

It is just a shame that the other central defenders are no better.

[malcd1]

Goal 1 was a mistake by Zat Knight which he nearly managed to get back and rectify but it was ZK fault.

I don't think that was Zat chasing back making that last ditch challenge. I'm positive it was Baptiste.

Look again. You will see Zat ambling back after giving the ball away.

[StaffsTrotter]

agree with a lot of what you say norpig.

nothing pisses me off more than scapegoating.

unfortunately ZK has now fallen into one of them situations where he could play well for 90% of time - first mistake and people are on his back. and before everyone says he has to play well 100% - it doesn't work like that. its a team game. the lengths some people go back in a sequence of play to blame a scapegoat, or how the scapegoat made another player make a mistake is laughable.

on saturday if mears had been playing he would have been crucified and been the main scapegoat, as all the goals came from down that side.

I can see that wheater is also now falling into the same position - too slow, accident waiting to happen etc etc, yet I remember when we got him how chuffed everyone was - redcar rock, england caps for u16 to 21.

bring dawson in, that it'll fix it - not convinced.

problem is DF obviously likes what he see in our current CH pairing - he's just made one captain and just given the other a new contract. so everyone had better get behind them and see if they can forge a good partnership (after more than 3 games)

[Peter Thompson]

He's slow & lazy, has an awful 'can't be bothered' laid back attitude and has a major mistake / error in him in almost every game. He looks like a player who doesn't really care whether we win or lose.

He should never have been given a new contract under Coyle, and even worse should not have been made captain under Freedman. Wheater is equally as bad at the moment even slower than Knight and again there is a mistake in him per game as well.

So playing the 2 of them together is poor football management, anyone with pace & movement will score against us, and TBH I'm staggered that Freedman has put them both in the same team, and this is one of the main reasons why I have doubts in Freedman's judgement and tactical nous as a manager.

[BWFC_Insane]

He's slow & lazy, has an awful 'can't be bothered' laid back attitude and has a major mistake / error in him in almost every game. He looks like a player who doesn't really care whether we win or lose.

He should never have been given a new contract under Coyle, and even worse should not have been made captain under Freedman. Wheater is equally as bad at the moment even slower than Knight and again there is a mistake in him per game as well.

So playing the 2 of them together is poor football management, anyone with pace & movement will score against us, and TBH I'm staggered that Freedman has put them both in the same team, and this is one of the main reasons why I have doubts in Freedman's judgement and tactical nous as a manager.

So who would you pick?

Matt Mills who seemingly was desperate for a move to Leeds to be reunited with McDermott but wouldn't take a wage cut to do so.....or Ream who if we believe Nixon has said in an interview to the media that he finds the championship too physical and can't cope?

[YtarmyYtarmy]

I agree with Norpig, in the fact that both centre halves get pulled out of position, by the full backs, Marc Tierney in particular was in no mans land on several occasions against Reading leaving massive gaps behind himself and not closing down the winger. Knight makes more than his fair share of mistakes but he does do a lot things right and his telescopic legs have stopped more than the odd goal. Footballs a game of opinion and you will never please all the people all of the time. Knights a bit like Marmite, you either Hate him, or you dont Hate him as much as others !! 3 games in, and a poor start, we just need to get behind the boys and not on their backs so soon into the campaign !!

COYWM