A case for Defence (is it really all Zats Fault?)

[Norpig]

Well more of an even debate than Knight is rubbish. I am not a fan of Zat I just cannot see why the defence has been singled out. I could have easily have named this post why have we only scored 2 league goals this season?? If the strikers had been more clinical we would be sitting pretty with 6 points making this argument moot.

If the defence wasn't so bad (playing centre backs better than the current ones at RB, despite not being as good a RB as the actual RB who's sat on the bench.. Still with me) we might be able to play a bit further up the pitch and get the ball to the front men and make it stick and not have 2 defensive mids to protect them.. Well, I say protect...

Before Saturday we had only conceded 2 gaols in the first 2 games, yes a few clean sheets would give us a good chance of winning but with the players we have that is not going to happen therefore our strickers have got to step up and be more clinical when the opportunity presents itself. We have had plenty of promise going forward with no end product.

I do not think our 2 DMs are player out and out defensive midfield they seem to be going up and down the pitch. I agree with what someone said earlier that they need to have a better awareness of each other so both of them are not going into attack at the same time.

I also agree with your point that the RB on the bench should be given a chance so that the current RB can play instead of one of the current CB.

[bedwetter2]

Ream, Knight, Wheater - in that order - are not natural central defenders for different reasons. Ream because he has no real physical presence, Knight because he is prone to lapses of concentration and Wheater because he is so slow.
I'm also of the opinion that intelligence, or should I say quick-wittedness, is a key attribute for a defender and I have seen little evidence of that from our centre backs.

Norpig mentioned better awareness of their surrounding players. I doubt you can coach that and it does appear that when panic sets in, as it inevitably does during the course of our games, the central defenders cannot but resort to type.

There are few easy solutions to this but I would welcome the chance to assess whether moving Baptiste over could help. I somehow doubt it but perhaps giving Mills another opportunity to play, but alongside Baptiste or maybe even Bolger alongside a quicker partner could all be assessed. Such permutations are best tried in the development squad, at least theoretically, but such games never really test players in the same way as league ones.

We have leaked 5 goals in three league games so far with a few more in the pre-season games. At this rate we could concede something in the order of 80 goals during the season, so experimentation needs to start now if we can't get Dawson back.

[ChrisC]

I'd go with Ream and Wheater for a few games. Ream has generally looked poor in the Championship so far but in his entire time at Bolton, he's only had one sustained period in the side for us and he performed well in that period. There's a chance he won't improve but it's tough for a defender to come in for a game after not playing a game in months and be expected to be up to pace. Ream hasn't played consistently since his first season with us in the Premier League, so I'd like to try him with Wheater for 5 games or so.

I'm not saying he's definitely going to be the answer to our problems but what I do think is that he and Wheater had a good partnership in the past, and playing him for a game every 6 weeks will always lead to disjointed, poor performances. He, like any player, will be off the pace when brought into the first team so sporadically. I don't think Ream is much worse than Knight - if at all - but unlike Knight, there's at least the chance that Ream can improve if he gets game time. We've seen Knight at the best he possibly can be whereas there's likely more to come from Ream, if he's allowed the chance to perform regularly and be a part of a partnership himself.

It might not work but for me, it's better than sticking with something that you know will only ever disappoint.

When Dawson come in for his first game he had barely played himself apart from maybe reserves at West Brom.

He walked in the team like a pro and was a class act.

If a player is upto it then they shouldn't need 5 games to bed in. Especially when they have been at the club for a few years.

[BWFC_Insane]

And the other problem is that Wheater has been worse than Knight so far. Ok he has the excuse of coming back from a long term injury which will take him time before he is firing on all cylinders.

But how long do we give him whilst he costs us points?

For me right now if we are to change the partnership and there is a strong argument for trying something different it is 100% Knight plus A.N.Other.

[AbrahM]

Someone may have said it but I think much of the defensive problems are down to Bogdan, doesn't organise anyone, you never see him shouting at his defence and he doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them. Fair enough he is an excellent shot stopper but which keepers aren't?

I don't think it's all down to Zat, but he and Wheater can NOT play together.

Also why did we get rid of Ricketts? I always liked him and he could play right across the back.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I'd go with Ream and Wheater for a few games. Ream has generally looked poor in the Championship so far but in his entire time at Bolton, he's only had one sustained period in the side for us and he performed well in that period. There's a chance he won't improve but it's tough for a defender to come in for a game after not playing a game in months and be expected to be up to pace. Ream hasn't played consistently since his first season with us in the Premier League, so I'd like to try him with Wheater for 5 games or so.

I'm not saying he's definitely going to be the answer to our problems but what I do think is that he and Wheater had a good partnership in the past, and playing him for a game every 6 weeks will always lead to disjointed, poor performances. He, like any player, will be off the pace when brought into the first team so sporadically. I don't think Ream is much worse than Knight - if at all - but unlike Knight, there's at least the chance that Ream can improve if he gets game time. We've seen Knight at the best he possibly can be whereas there's likely more to come from Ream, if he's allowed the chance to perform regularly and be a part of a partnership himself.

It might not work but for me, it's better than sticking with something that you know will only ever disappoint.

Stats from the relegation season somewhat back this idea up. Their 13 games together came in a run of 14 games, Feb-May.

...but I would also be tempted to question, as BWFCi does, whether Wheater would survive the cull before Knight.

[wigan white]

I completely agree about Bogdan, he's a great shot-stopper but doesnt seem to have authority over his box and doesnt seem to inspire confidence in the defence. I do think the games Lonergan played last season, he had control over his defenders and commanded his area well.
In regards to Knight, even though he's 9ft 9" tall, he has a weakness in the air due to his lack of timing to jump for a ball and dont know if anyone has noticed, he doesn't attack the ball in the air, he just lets it hit his head. This is probably why he never scores from corners. Look at Dawson last season, he runs and attacks the ball when he heads it and hence the goals from corners and the good clearances from defence. Knights body language doesnt help him as he looks lathargic and "cant be arsed". It still beggars belief with DF's comments last season that Dawson helped Knights game by organising him and teling him where he should be, why should a 22yr old defender have to tell a 32yr old defender where he should be, does that not send alaram bells ringing?
Wheater does need games to get back to his best, unfortunately he cant play alongside Kinght as they are both slow and lack pace and leave us short against pacy (or not so pacy) attackers.
I think the criticism of Baptiste and Tierney has been a little harsh, both have been left exposed by their "wingers" and also by Knight/Wheaters positioning. I can see what DF is trying to do, but again injury to Eagles and Ngog have affected his choices.

[boltonboris]

A keeper doesn't organise the defence FFS. The defence organises the defence.

Keeper tells you to get rid of it, get out of his area and that's about it. I sometimes think a few people need to play the game before talking about it in depth

[BWFC_Insane]

A keeper doesn't organise the defence FFS. The defence organises the defence.

Keeper tells you to get rid of it, get out of his area and that's about it. I sometimes think a few people need to play the game before talking about it in depth

Agree with the first bit. The second bit, not so much.

[wigan white]

A keeper doesn't organise the defence FFS. The defence organises the defence.

Keeper tells you to get rid of it, get out of his area and that's about it. I sometimes think a few people need to play the game before talking about it in depth

So you're saying a keeper doesn't organise his defence? They're all one unit and should all work as one. I agree the defence organises itself but also the keeper has responsibilty to help sort out whats going on infront of him. What's playing the game got to do with knowing about it? I've played for years as a defender and we played in a more organised way when the keeper was vocal and helped in the organisation. Its all about the team communicating.

[wigan white]

A keeper doesn't organise the defence FFS. The defence organises the defence.

Keeper tells you to get rid of it, get out of his area and that's about it. I sometimes think a few people need to play the game before talking about it in depth

I am a keeper, and yes they can. They don't have to, but it can and does help. I don't claim to have played to professional level but I have a lot of competitive experience, playing in school and university first teams (latter being VERY competitive). I was also coached by Branagan (an arrogant tosspot in person but that's another story) who coached me for a few years at school. Not doing a "my dad is bigger than your dad" statement, I'm just saying that I have more experience as a keeper than your average fan. I'd like to think that commenting on goalkeepers is one of the few things I can comment on with some personal experience and knowledge.

It shouldn't be their sole job, but some keepers find it far easier to command the defence because they see more of the game; they help them keep their line and let them know if they are leaving gaping holes. Our defence are doing that every game, being dragged out of shape and leaving holes, and Bogdan is doing nothing to rectify it. It helps build rapport and confidence between the two areas if there's a flow of communication. Personally I did it both at uni and school, and did it very well I might (in terms of the leagues I played in). Jussi did it very effectively for us at his peak years, Schemiechel did it at united. It's tried and proven, but doesn't have to be the hallmark of a good keeper. Especially when the backline lacks a leader and organiser, again something that we fall into, it really helps if a keeper can organise or command the back line.

Then you have keepers who don't do it as much like Cech, or at least he doesn't seem to. Reina is another solid keeper who seems pretty quiet. They usually play very well because it suits them and their defence. Bogdan is also one of these keepers and with an organiser in defence, Dawson, he didn't have to. It worked for us.

Currently with us, the defence aren't inspiring confidence in Bogdan, nor he them. With the way our back line gets so bent out of shape he should be yelling at them and helping to organise them, and he isn't. There is minimal communication between the two and it just exacerbates the situation.

tl;dr: You're sort of right, keepers don't have to command their defence, but it certainly helps. I disagree with the notion that you think a keeper should only save shots and tell them when to clear.

EDIT: Typos and clarity.

Thats what I was trying to say but you said it better

[boltonboris]

Correct: Im saying a keeper doesn't organise his defence. How can he see the line? How can see the space between the back four and the midfield? It's up to the defenders to position themselves accordingly. If I told the keeper (keepers are a bit cuckoo tbh) that he needed to organise us, he'd tell me to fvck off and flatten me on the next corner.

[Andy Waller]

Correct: Im saying a keeper doesn't organise his defence. How can he see the line? How can see the space between the back four and the midfield? It's up to the defenders to position themselves accordingly. If I told the keeper (keepers are a bit cuckoo tbh) that he needed to organise us, he'd tell me to fvck off and flatten me on the next corner.

But he can see the spacing of the back four?

Those massive gaps we seem to leave every week?

[boltonboris]

Yep, but so can the defenders... He'll make sure the line is right and they get out when they need to, but that's all he needs to do.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I sometimes think a few people need to play the game before talking about it in depth

...and then you remember that that's the kind of thinking that keeps Robbie Savage coming in your ears.

(Speaking as a defender though, I agree that a defence should organise itself - but I also agree that clear communication from behind helps a lot.)

[Andy Waller]

But if they don't trust him to come out etc, it can't help.

I do sympathise a bit with the back four though, against Reading, all their back four seemed to do was return headers where ours were being attacked from midfield and down the flanks.

We really need to look at keeping the ball a bit more, we've got really poor movement and the distribution is awful.

[Andy Waller]

But if they don't trust him to come out etc, it can't help.

I do sympathise a bit with the back four though, against Reading, all their back four seemed to do was return headers where ours were being attacked from midfield and down the flanks.

We really need to look at keeping the ball a bit more, we've got really poor movement and the distribution is awful.

Then again, we drew that game so what do I know?

[boltonboris]

But if they don't trust him to come out etc, it can't help.

I do sympathise a bit with the back four though, against Reading, all their back four seemed to do was return headers where ours were being attacked from midfield and down the flanks.

We really need to look at keeping the ball a bit more, we've got really poor movement and the distribution is awful.

A competent defence will sort out our style of play. We'll be able to play higher up the pitch and keep the ball in their third a bit more. At the moment, we've got no transition as the spine of our team is weak.

[Prufrock]

Wheater is rusty and slow but he's been better than Zat so far this year.

Burnley goal pissed me right off. Wheater can't help being slow as f*ck, and actually did pretty much everything right apart from run slow. Captain Zat should have the intelligence to realise that he and Wheats are a little screwed against strikers with legs and made sure that ball didn't get there. If that meant fouling their lad, then that's what he should have done. Absolute worse case, providing he didn't actually punch him, would be a booking. Instead it was Wheater 1v1. Eek.

Reading pen, feck knows what Wheater was doing.

Forest: first goal was pathetic from Knight. Boris was kind in saying it looked like under 11s. Folk were saying the rest of the defence were out of position, but they weren't! Baptiste was getting forward to give Knight an option. I said it in preseason, but you cannot legislate for Knight making mistakes a ten year-old wouldn't make. You can't spend the entire game taking precautions in case Knight gives it away under no pressure.

Wheater was miles better than Knight on Sat. Exposed for pace, but you can afford that if he's next to a quick 'un. Zat that ain't (and again, that's not his fault) but Wheater and a mobile centre-half would fill me with a lot more confidence than Knight and the same.

[BWFC_Insane]

But if they don't trust him to come out etc, it can't help.

I do sympathise a bit with the back four though, against Reading, all their back four seemed to do was return headers where ours were being attacked from midfield and down the flanks.

We really need to look at keeping the ball a bit more, we've got really poor movement and the distribution is awful.

A competent defence will sort out our style of play. We'll be able to play higher up the pitch and keep the ball in their third a bit more. At the moment, we've got no transition as the spine of our team is weak.

This what Boris said.