Tuesday's Trip to Tranmere

[SmokinFrazier]

F*cking hell. This discussion is actually happening. we're discussing whether we're good enough to beat Tranmere. I told you the come down would be massive.

Should of beaten them yes. Do we have good enough team (reserves inall) yes. But so do Reading!! And they will be there or there about come end of the seasons

Where just on a bad run atm I trust Dougie will turn it around is there anything fvcking wrong with that?

no - nowt wrong with that - but then you aren't saying that Tranmere's players last night were better than the side we put out - you're not saying we fielded a team simply not good enough to beat Tranmere. there are lots of reasons good teams can lose against poorer teams - but I am not having BWFCi's explanation that man-for-man Tranmere had simply better quality players than on display ours - they didn't. BWFCi is saying that our team last night was qualitatively worse than Tranmere's team - and so beating them was pretty much never gonna happen and there was nowt dougie could have done about it.

I agree with this.

Losing to Tranmere isn't an issue on it's own. Upsets happen in football, it's why we have so many ups and downs as fans, but it's not this loss itself that is the problem, it's the manner of all these performances. We've never played well under Freedman, including in that long 'good' stretch, and a continuation of that is why we're doing so poorly now. Nothing has fundamentally changed, we've carried on with the last gasp defending and terrible attacking play, the only difference is that instead of us scoring scrappy goals and last gasp defending going in our favour, that good fortune is no longer there. Freedman made a point a while ago that performances are more important than results and that's something I tend to agree with, because if you're playing well, you'll get your rewards but we're simply not doing right now. We're getting poor results but we're getting what we deserve, and if anything, our season so far hasn't reflected how woeful and poor constructed a side we are.

Bring Dawson in, bring another winger in, bring Messi and Ronaldo in for all it matters. It won't make us into a side with tactically good, cohesive side. We already have easily enough quality to batter sides like Tranmere, the root of the problem is that there's a poor manager at the helm.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, there is that.

While you were suffering at Prenton (and hey, I've been there brother), one TW poster politely asked for an end to the Knight-knocking. You can imagine the response, but I said it might help if he wasn't so frequently culpable.

And its only going to get worse as Zat will have to stay in the side if (as I suspect) Wheater has a relatively serious injury.

[thebish]

Well, there is that.

While you were suffering at Prenton (and hey, I've been there brother), one TW poster politely asked for an end to the Knight-knocking. You can imagine the response, but I said it might help if he wasn't so frequently culpable.

And its only going to get worse as Zat will have to stay in the side if (as I suspect) Wheater has a relatively serious injury.

and dougie made him captain...

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, there is that.

While you were suffering at Prenton (and hey, I've been there brother), one TW poster politely asked for an end to the Knight-knocking. You can imagine the response, but I said it might help if he wasn't so frequently culpable.

And its only going to get worse as Zat will have to stay in the side if (as I suspect) Wheater has a relatively serious injury.

and dougie made him captain...

Aye and last night was a chance to look at a different pair in Wheater and Mills, which he took. But of course Wheater injured his knee (again) and that chance was denied.

So now we have Ream out, Wheater out (possibly), Tierney injured.

So there is no choice.

[PC1978]

F*cking hell. This discussion is actually happening. we're discussing whether we're good enough to beat Tranmere. I told you the come down would be massive.

Should of beaten them yes. Do we have good enough team (reserves inall) yes. But so do Reading!! And they will be there or there about come end of the seasons

Where just on a bad run atm I trust Dougie will turn it around is there anything fvcking wrong with that?

no - nowt wrong with that - but then you aren't saying that Tranmere's players last night were better than the side we put out - you're not saying we fielded a team simply not good enough to beat Tranmere. there are lots of reasons good teams can lose against poorer teams - but I am not having BWFCi's explanation that man-for-man Tranmere had simply better quality players than on display ours - they didn't. BWFCi is saying that our team last night was qualitatively worse than Tranmere's team - and so beating them was pretty much never gonna happen and there was nowt dougie could have done about it.

I agree with this.

Losing to Tranmere isn't an issue on it's own. Upsets happen in football, it's why we have so many ups and downs as fans, but it's not this loss itself that is the problem, it's the manner of all these performances. We've never played well under Freedman, including in that long 'good' stretch, and a continuation of that is why we're doing so poorly now. Nothing has fundamentally changed, we've carried on with the last gasp defending and terrible attacking play, the only difference is that instead of us scoring scrappy goals and last gasp defending going in our favour, that good fortune is no longer there. Freedman made a point a while ago that performances are more important than results and that's something I tend to agree with, because if you're playing well, you'll get your rewards but we're simply not doing right now. We're getting poor results but we're getting what we deserve, and if anything, our season so far hasn't reflected how woeful and poor constructed a side we are.

Bring Dawson in, bring another winger in, bring Messi and Ronaldo in for all it matters. It won't make us into a side with tactically good, cohesive side. We already have easily enough quality to batter sides like Tranmere, the root of the problem is that there's a poor manager at the helm.

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?
Take players of the quality of Eagles and Mark Davies out of any of the favourites for this league and they will struggle.
Most people agreed that whoever came in that it would be a big job to turn around the decline in our club but some people just like to post the same old, monotonous managerial dagger stabs after every game which goes badly.

[a1]

coyle givin' frees to millions of poundsworth of players because he couldnt be sure what division theyd be in (which was what allardyce used to say in the first prem season) fecked em up proper. he treated it like burnley instead of a middling prem team it really were.

the dick.

[thebish]

Well, there is that.

While you were suffering at Prenton (and hey, I've been there brother), one TW poster politely asked for an end to the Knight-knocking. You can imagine the response, but I said it might help if he wasn't so frequently culpable.

And its only going to get worse as Zat will have to stay in the side if (as I suspect) Wheater has a relatively serious injury.

and dougie made him captain...

Aye and last night was a chance to look at a different pair in Wheater and Mills, which he took.

tis normal practice in a cup game to play some second string, isn't it? I doubt he played Lonergan because he plans to replace Bogdan in the league... same with Zat - he made him captain - you have to conclude that he is intending him to play a major role. he didn't have to make him captain - but dougie clearly sees summat in Knight that many people don't.

[thebish]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?

of course that's a factor - but there are not many periods of our recent history when we have not been "missing key players" for one reason or another... it can't be the ONLY factor, though, can it?

[Lord Kangana]

coyle givin' frees to millions of poundsworth of players because he couldnt be sure what division theyd be in (which was what allardyce used to say in the first prem season) fecked em up proper. he treated it like burnley instead of a middling prem team it really were.

the dick.

He's been gone nearly a year. Perhaps its time we started to actually sort the mess out, wouldn't you say? Or is it easier to say plenty and do nothing?

[PC1978]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?

of course that's a factor - but there are not many periods of our recent history when we have not been "missing key players" for one reason or another... it can't be the ONLY factor, though, can it?

Nor is it the only factor that our manager is useless as some people seem to think and repeatedly tell everyone after every bad result.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?
Take players of the quality of Eagles and Mark Davies out of any of the favourites for this league and they will struggle.
Most people agreed that whoever came in that it would be a big job to turn around the decline in our club but some people just like to post the same old, monotonous managerial dagger stabs after every game which goes badly.

I'm not saying the likes of Eagles and Mavies aren't big misses, but we've been trotting something very very similar to what you said for a while now. The relegation season, last season and now this season.

Genuine question. At what point does it stop being unlucky with injuries and where does it start becoming an issue with the management of the problem?

I'm happy at this stage to accept he has brought in new people to deal with the science bit and some new medical type people. Hopefully we'll see this start to bear fruit. That said, Dougie should have plans in place to deal with the fallout from injuries. We've 2 defenders that have been returning from long(ish) injuries in Wheater, Mills and Mears. Whilst we've brought in 2 full backs and lost one. We also have the youngster injured. I'm not convinced Dougie has done enough there. Look at the creative side and you could argue the same. I don't know how much is money, but I'm not convinced we've prioritised correctly.

I've somewhat rambled, but my main point is can we really continue with the injury excuse into the 3rd season?

[BWFC_Insane]

coyle givin' frees to millions of poundsworth of players because he couldnt be sure what division theyd be in (which was what allardyce used to say in the first prem season) fecked em up proper. he treated it like burnley instead of a middling prem team it really were.

the dick.

He's been gone nearly a year. Perhaps its time we started to actually sort the mess out, wouldn't you say? Or is it easier to say plenty and do nothing?

You said before it would take a minimum of 3 years and we should all prepare ourselves for that.....

[a1]

He's been gone nearly a year. Perhaps its time we started to actually sort the mess out, wouldn't you say? Or is it easier to say plenty and do nothing?

i'd say douglas sorted it last year. its the lack of money thats biting 'em now, hence douglas's over egging of the spearing signing as if we'd just signed a player for a billion dollars. that's still coyle's fault. but luckily for him he brown nosed his way into spending some other chumps money.

i think i know how that'll end up.

bolton might turn it round, i dunno, megson out.

[thebish]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?

of course that's a factor - but there are not many periods of our recent history when we have not been "missing key players" for one reason or another... it can't be the ONLY factor, though, can it?

Nor is it the only factor that our manager is useless as some people seem to think and repeatedly tell everyone after every bad result.

no - i agree - those who insist it is ONE THING: crap manager, rubbish players, bad luck, whatever - are equally tedious!

dougie is not a crap manager and neither is he a magician
the squad is decent enough to be managed into playing a decent game it's not utter rubbish
we have had bad luck and injuries - but we always have - suck it up
we haven't got the cash of QPR - but then we already have a decent squad
some of the players ARE bought by the previous manager - some of them Dougie rates highly - Knight, Ngog, Eagles... he hasn't been able to buy a whole new team - but then how many managers get to do that? he's brought quite a few in - and quite a few of them are playing...

it's complex - there are probably myriad intersecting reasons for our poor form (and poor form it is!)

i'm nowhere near the point (despite what BWFCi claims) of calling for dougie to be sacked - nowhere near... but equally, I don't think he's performing as we hoped/anticipated - I expect him to get far more out of the resources he has got than he has, so far, this season...

[PC1978]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?
Take players of the quality of Eagles and Mark Davies out of any of the favourites for this league and they will struggle.
Most people agreed that whoever came in that it would be a big job to turn around the decline in our club but some people just like to post the same old, monotonous managerial dagger stabs after every game which goes badly.

I'm not saying the likes of Eagles and Mavies aren't big misses, but we've been trotting something very very similar to what you said for a while now. The relegation season, last season and now this season.

Genuine question. At what point does it stop being unlucky with injuries and where does it start becoming an issue with the management of the problem?

I'm happy at this stage to accept he has brought in new people to deal with the science bit and some new medical type people. Hopefully we'll see this start to bear fruit. That said, Dougie should have plans in place to deal with the fallout from injuries. We've 2 defenders that have been returning from long(ish) injuries in Wheater, Mills and Mears. Whilst we've brought in 2 full backs and lost one. We also have the youngster injured. I'm not convinced Dougie has done enough there. Look at the creative side and you could argue the same. I don't know how much is money, but I'm not convinced we've prioritised correctly.

I've somewhat rambled, but my main point is can we really continue with the injury excuse into the 3rd season?

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players. This means that if you lose four defenders or two of your creative midfielders or whatever, then your options are far more limited. Gone are the days where we could say suchabody is out for 6 months so we just buy or loan another. Likewise, managers in the past few years (none more so than Allardyce) drafted in seemingly endless streams of potentially good players for little or no fees but taking a wage. Most of these players turned out to be useless but there was the odd diamond in the mix as we well know. I just think it is unfair at the minute to put all the blame at Dougie's door when the situation at the club is like it is. I trust that when he can ship out a defender or two that he will sign somebody up to standard and the club will turn around. Alternatively, I also trust that when we have the likes of Eagles or Mark Davies or even a fully fit and up to speed Moritz that our creative side of things will be fine.

Basically, I am saying stop the panic as we have had a lot of bad luck both with injuries and with what I saw as a very difficult first 6 matches. But leave Dougie alone for a bit to see what happens between now and Christmas at the very least. When the whole of the Reebok are saying something akin to why has he subbed Muamba or why 4-4-2 with Kev up front then get on his back.

[thebish]

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players.

has the club actually said this - publicly?

[PC1978]

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players.

has the club actually said this - publicly?

I am sure that Dougie has even if the club hasn't. And if you look at our summer transfer dealings, how many times has one player left and one arrived within a day of each other since the preseason began. I am also counting the injury to Holden as being one out!

[SmokinFrazier]

F*cking hell. This discussion is actually happening. we're discussing whether we're good enough to beat Tranmere. I told you the come down would be massive.

Should of beaten them yes. Do we have good enough team (reserves inall) yes. But so do Reading!! And they will be there or there about come end of the seasons

Where just on a bad run atm I trust Dougie will turn it around is there anything fvcking wrong with that?

no - nowt wrong with that - but then you aren't saying that Tranmere's players last night were better than the side we put out - you're not saying we fielded a team simply not good enough to beat Tranmere. there are lots of reasons good teams can lose against poorer teams - but I am not having BWFCi's explanation that man-for-man Tranmere had simply better quality players than on display ours - they didn't. BWFCi is saying that our team last night was qualitatively worse than Tranmere's team - and so beating them was pretty much never gonna happen and there was nowt dougie could have done about it.

I agree with this.

Losing to Tranmere isn't an issue on it's own. Upsets happen in football, it's why we have so many ups and downs as fans, but it's not this loss itself that is the problem, it's the manner of all these performances. We've never played well under Freedman, including in that long 'good' stretch, and a continuation of that is why we're doing so poorly now. Nothing has fundamentally changed, we've carried on with the last gasp defending and terrible attacking play, the only difference is that instead of us scoring scrappy goals and last gasp defending going in our favour, that good fortune is no longer there. Freedman made a point a while ago that performances are more important than results and that's something I tend to agree with, because if you're playing well, you'll get your rewards but we're simply not doing right now. We're getting poor results but we're getting what we deserve, and if anything, our season so far hasn't reflected how woeful and poor constructed a side we are.

Bring Dawson in, bring another winger in, bring Messi and Ronaldo in for all it matters. It won't make us into a side with tactically good, cohesive side. We already have easily enough quality to batter sides like Tranmere, the root of the problem is that there's a poor manager at the helm.

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?
Take players of the quality of Eagles and Mark Davies out of any of the favourites for this league and they will struggle.
Most people agreed that whoever came in that it would be a big job to turn around the decline in our club but some people just like to post the same old, monotonous managerial dagger stabs after every game which goes badly.

Individuals should help a team but a team should not be reliant on individuals. We are heavily reliant on individuals under Freedman because he's not a good enough manager to create a well structured, organised team to defend well and create chances without exceptional players (for the league) like Eagles, Davies and Dawson to cover up his flaws.

We have one of the strongest squads in the division but of course it could be better. So what? Every team in the Championship will say the same thing, however, most of those fans would kill for a squad like ours. Look at Forest or Watford, who have both started really well this year. Do you not think they'd love to have some of the players in our starting 11 or even our squad? Of course they would. We have a better squad than both of them them and a much better starting 11, so it's not the case of us having a weak team. We have a very strong best 11 for this league and it's not the players fault things are going wrong, that blame should lie directly at Freedman who has proven incapable - throughout his entire reign - of being able to get the best out of them. There are some players who make costly mistakes, especially Knight, but overall, our squad is very good for this league and we're underperforming not because of the lack of quality from them but the manager whose job it is to get the most out of them.

[thebish]

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players.

has the club actually said this - publicly?

I am sure that Dougie has even if the club hasn't. And if you look at our summer transfer dealings, how many times has one player left and one arrived within a day of each other since the preseason began. I am also counting the injury to Holden as being one out!

I'm aware that there is a theory around that this is the policy - I just don't think the club has actually said it - have they? (the club and BWFCi are not the same thing! )

[PC1978]

I think that Freedman has been stuck with some players (whilst good players as you say) that are incompatible with each other. I would rate Wheater or Knight or Mills in this division as individual players, but not rate any two of them as a central defensive pair. I think in the long term that he will be a success but it was always going to take a long time to sort out.