Dougie Freedman - Ten Months On

[thebish]

The obvious balance is to ask when we went on our record breaking run of 5 consecutive clean sheets at home last season was that down to Craig Dawson or Dougie and his coaching?

not sure that's an obvious balance - it's the offer of an either-or dichotomy!!

it could also be both and/or neither and/or a whole host of other factors!

It is a fairly obvious balance. We kept clean sheets with Dawson in. That is either because Dawson was the missing link in our back four or because they were coached better.

or a whole host of other factors. (we kept clean sheets with knight and ricketts - in the premiership - but I never heard you describe Ricketts as the missing link to success!)

[Enoch]

Ah, sorry, I thought you were someone else.

[Lord Kangana]

The obvious balance is to ask when we went on our record breaking run of 5 consecutive clean sheets at home last season was that down to Craig Dawson or Dougie and his coaching?

To which the obvious binary answer is Dougie if you like Dougie, Dawson if you don't.

I would suggest the obvious binary answer would be that the 5 clean sheets last season were all down to Dougie, and the lack of them this were all down to his predecessor. Chronology has no place in this argument!

[thebish]

Ah, sorry, I thought you were someone else.

[Prufrock]

It frustrates me that someone would actually argue that our defence isn't terrible. How can anyone watching the games not see what is happening? Our defenders run around like headless chickens without the slightest clue of what they're supposed to be doing. That's what causes the individual errors, not that the players have suddenly all become inept overnight. That indecision is the issue with our defence right now and it stems from the fact that even though Freedman has been here for a long time now and has often talked much about building a strong defence, we're still as shambolic as we were under Coyle, who was rightly slaughtered for our weak defence. I guess as long as the manager talks a good game, it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Maybe if also Freedman starts to emphasise that he thinks our creative play is good, people will ignore the fact that in some games, like Cardiff last year, despite us having plenty of possession, our lone striker didn't receive a single pass in an entire half.

Players don't suddenly become error prone. Any time you'll see a side that is low on confidence and has issues with miscommunication, you see individual errors popping up, even at the very highest level. It has nothing to do with the abilities of the players. As much as he's disliked on here, someone like Zat Knight is better than his mistakes make him seem at times. He's just unfortunate enough to be playing in a horribly managed defence, which has no idea what it's doing as a unit. We are all over the place and whilst it's easy for fans to boo Knight and our other defenders, the real blame should be placed on Freedman. He's not personally responsible for misplaced passes, bad tackles and things like that, but he is responsible for the indecision within our team which then causes individual mistakes.

All right I'll try again.

Given you're sure it's obvious what is going wrong, and that it can be fixed, you must have some ideas on how.

Let's hear it? You've said the players are good enough, so no hiding behind breaking up Wheater and Knight. How would you set the team up to win? What would you be coaching them in order to irradicate these individual mistakes that are the fault of the management?

Let's have some of that know-how you have as someone who is 'inside football' or whatever bollocks phrase you used because you passed a course with a 96% pass rate designed to give parents the confidence to teach kids to pass five yards. What are Dougie and Lennie missing? Let's actually offer something, ey?

[thebish]

Let's have some of that know-how you have as someone who is 'inside football' or whatever bollocks phrase you used because you passed a course with a 96% pass rate designed to give parents the confidence to teach kids to pass five yards. What are Dougie and Lennie missing? Let's actually offer something, ey?

as you are slinging this around - would you care to list for us what exactly you think his qualifications are?

smokin' often talks a lot of shoite - but play the argument, not the man!! the whole stuff that gets endlessly and tediously thrown at him about coaching qualifications was SIMPLY his straightforward response to BWFCi who accused him of simply being a kid who played championship manager and knew nothing about the actual game. I have never seen smokin' boast about qualifications or use any such claim to belittle anyone else... he has never claimed to be "inside football" - however often people throw out the charge that he has said summat like that...


rant over!

[Prufrock]

I'm not slinging around what I think they are.

Iirc, when questioned on his assertion that he 'knew football' or somesuch, it turned out he had a level 1 qualification from the FA.

That is, unless stuff has massively changed in the last few years, the mandatory qualification for anyone wishing to manage a kids team in an FA affiliated league. As such, it's pretty easy to get. One of the Assessors I know said he'd only ever failed one guy, and that was for turning up to do his assessment in white shorts when it was pissing it down (they swiftly became 'inappropriate' looool).

Now, what I'm certainly NOT saying is that no-one with that qualification knows what they are on about, simply that no-one knows what they are on about BECAUSE they have it. None of the qualifications before the several grand, big boy, residential week-end requiring ones deal with anything like organising a back four and midfield to defend.

Yon SF has kept giving it the knowing sounding comments, but the only actual suggestion I've seen him (or her) make is to get a central defensive pair of Knight and Wheater to defend HIGHER up the pitch. Accordingly, I call bullshit, and would like to know what the man who works inside football would do.

[Prufrock]

Bish, you've added more since I posted.

I may be wrong, and if so, my bad SF, but I remember BWFCi's comments coming exactly after he had in fact proffered to be some authority.

Claiming to know how to coach a proffesional back four because you have a level one would be like trying to coach Lewis Hamilton because you have a driving license. They're important qualifications for what they are but...

Anyway, if he never did give it the big I am, then I retract my sarcy stuff, and just leave the question of 'what would you actually do given you appear to be so sure as to what's wrong?'

[Harry Genshaw]

So is Dougie planning to sign a load of players who never make any individual errors, so that he doesn't need to coach them at all? Would it not be easier to just implement the strategy of managing the game when we don't have possession, which he told us all about last season?

Do you rate our defence?

A direct question. That should scare him off for a while....

[SmokinFrazier]

Given you're sure it's obvious what is going wrong, and that it can be fixed, you must have some ideas on how.

Let's hear it? You've said the players are good enough, so no hiding behind breaking up Wheater and Knight. How would you set the team up to win? What would you be coaching them in order to irradicate these individual mistakes that are the fault of the management?

I'd start by limiting the attacking movement of the full backs to ensure that our defence doesn't get outnumbered, which has happened too much recently. We seem to be weak defending from crosses too, so having two full backs to prevent them from coming in would be a start. If they're attacking on our right, bring Tierney into the centre to mark an attacker or cover for either Knight or Wheater who are marking someone, and the same on the opposite side. I'd also have Spearing and Medo both sat back a bit deeper, especially Medo, but we need to start closing defenders down when they get within shooting range. We let far too many shots get off and that's one thing defenders don't want to face because as soon as you have the risk of shots coming in, it becomes hard to position yourself and maintain good lines. That area just outside our box is a big weakness and watching the game against Blackburn back, it highlights how glaring the gap is - Look at where Dunn is when the pass is played towards him for their first goal. There's at least 5m between him, within shooting distance, and the nearest defender. What does that do? It leads to nervousness, which is why two defenders jumped in with reckless challenges, got skinned and he scored. If there was someone closer to Dunn, as there should have been, the defenders wouldn't be worried about a first time shot, he doesn't get into the box and we prevent a goal. When Rhodes picks up the ball for their second goal, there is one defender within 20m of that area, which is reckless defending. Their third goal was a cracking finish but compare that to the shot Jay Spearing had - their player charged at Spearing and successfully blocked the ball, our defenders sat back, which left open massive gaps, and he hit it well and it went in. Had our players charged the ball down, maybe that would have been prevented? It's impossible to say, but any goalkeeper in the world would want their midfield to charge down shots rather than gormlessly standing in the box, doing nothing. It's not even like they aren't helping, what that does is makes the goalkeepers job even harder because he's got men in his way. Compare that to Blackburn; when we scored, there were 5 defenders all hovering around that dangerous area we leave open. Fair enough, we scored but we did so after they forced us wide and made us pass to our left back. Cracking goal by us but tactically, the Blackburn defence can just write it off as being good play whereas with the goals we concede, it's defensively poor.

You can't stop every goal going in but Blackburn did what they should be doing. Defend in numbers, close the attackers down and prevent shots. We don't do that anywhere near well enough, and we never have done under Freedman.

I don't think defending should be too hard to plan. When you're an attacking side, what situations do you want to be in? You want defenders with 10m gaps between their next man, you want glaring gaps outside the box, you want full backs being half way up the pitch when you're attacking. All we have to do in order to have a better defence is to stop offering these gifts to opposition teams. It's very basic, yet despite playing four defenders and two defensive midfielders in pretty much every game this season, Freedman hasn't managed it. For our next game, I'd make Medo sit a lot deeper than he currently does and I'd prevent Baptiste and Tierney from being so attacking. That might not fix every problem we have but I'm confident we'd be a bit harder to score against.

as you are slinging this around - would you care to list for us what exactly you think his qualifications are?

smokin' often talks a lot of shoite - but play the argument, not the man!! the whole stuff that gets endlessly and tediously thrown at him about coaching qualifications was SIMPLY his straightforward response to BWFCi who accused him of simply being a kid who played championship manager and knew nothing about the actual game. I have never seen smokin' boast about qualifications or use any such claim to belittle anyone else... he has never claimed to be "inside football" - however often people throw out the charge that he has said summat like that...


rant over!

Cheers, mate. The only times I've ever been a bit smug about getting something right has always been in jest - but as I seem to be permanently negative on here, I wish I was wrong more often! I don't think I know more than anyone else on here because I know how often I'm wrong. There are members of this site whose knowledge far exceeds mine, so I certainly don't have any ego or anything like that. Where certain posters are concerned, especially BWFCi, I will be a bit condescending at times but that's only because I think he's a good guy and I'm just having a bit of fun with him. That's not me being a knob, it's just a bit of banter and when I get something wrong, I hope people give it back to me too.

If people disagree with me or think I'm an arse or whatever, that's fine, I don't mind. I don't really like this accusation that I think I know more than anyone else though, because it's not true but it makes me seem like a prick. Maybe it's because I disagree with people too vehemently, I'm not sure, but I'm often wrong and I know that. I like this site and I like pretty much every poster on here, so even though we may disagree with each other at times, I never see those disagreements as anything more than friendly banter. I'd rather be wrong and see us rise up the table than be smug with us sat in the relegation zone.

[Lord Kangana]

I know f*cking loads about football, and I've not even got a level zero in it.

[Worthy4England]

I know f*cking loads about football, and I've not even got a level zero in it.

We know.

[LeverEnd]

I know f*cking loads about football, and I've not even got a level zero in it.

I know lots about long distance running, feck all about football beyond what's in front of my nose. You should see me attempt to play - horrific!
This is why I avoid any attempt at in-depth tactical discussion. And why I think Ngog is good!

[Worthy4England]

This is great - everyone knows nowt about football. BWFCi will be along shortly to announce the last game he actually saw us in was Gillingham away in 1984.

[BWFC_Insane]

This is great - everyone knows nowt about football. BWFCi will be along shortly to announce the last game he actually saw us in was Gillingham away in 1984.

I note though that SF's plan is to stop our full backs getting forward and sit our midfield deeper. Would we get out doing that? I thought perceived opinion amongst many was that we already sat too deep?

[Prufrock]

Given you're sure it's obvious what is going wrong, and that it can be fixed, you must have some ideas on how.

Let's hear it? You've said the players are good enough, so no hiding behind breaking up Wheater and Knight. How would you set the team up to win? What would you be coaching them in order to irradicate these individual mistakes that are the fault of the management?

I'd start by limiting the attacking movement of the full backs to ensure that our defence doesn't get outnumbered, which has happened too much recently. We seem to be weak defending from crosses too, so having two full backs to prevent them from coming in would be a start. If they're attacking on our right, bring Tierney into the centre to mark an attacker or cover for either Knight or Wheater who are marking someone, and the same on the opposite side. I'd also have Spearing and Medo both sat back a bit deeper, especially Medo, but we need to start closing defenders down when they get within shooting range. We let far too many shots get off and that's one thing defenders don't want to face because as soon as you have the risk of shots coming in, it becomes hard to position yourself and maintain good lines. That area just outside our box is a big weakness and watching the game against Blackburn back, it highlights how glaring the gap is - Look at where Dunn is when the pass is played towards him for their first goal. There's at least 5m between him, within shooting distance, and the nearest defender. What does that do? It leads to nervousness, which is why two defenders jumped in with reckless challenges, got skinned and he scored. If there was someone closer to Dunn, as there should have been, the defenders wouldn't be worried about a first time shot, he doesn't get into the box and we prevent a goal. When Rhodes picks up the ball for their second goal, there is one defender within 20m of that area, which is reckless defending. Their third goal was a cracking finish but compare that to the shot Jay Spearing had - their player charged at Spearing and successfully blocked the ball, our defenders sat back, which left open massive gaps, and he hit it well and it went in. Had our players charged the ball down, maybe that would have been prevented? It's impossible to say, but any goalkeeper in the world would want their midfield to charge down shots rather than gormlessly standing in the box, doing nothing. It's not even like they aren't helping, what that does is makes the goalkeepers job even harder because he's got men in his way. Compare that to Blackburn; when we scored, there were 5 defenders all hovering around that dangerous area we leave open. Fair enough, we scored but we did so after they forced us wide and made us pass to our left back. Cracking goal by us but tactically, the Blackburn defence can just write it off as being good play whereas with the goals we concede, it's defensively poor.

You can't stop every goal going in but Blackburn did what they should be doing. Defend in numbers, close the attackers down and prevent shots. We don't do that anywhere near well enough, and we never have done under Freedman.

I don't think defending should be too hard to plan. When you're an attacking side, what situations do you want to be in? You want defenders with 10m gaps between their next man, you want glaring gaps outside the box, you want full backs being half way up the pitch when you're attacking. All we have to do in order to have a better defence is to stop offering these gifts to opposition teams. It's very basic, yet despite playing four defenders and two defensive midfielders in pretty much every game this season, Freedman hasn't managed it. For our next game, I'd make Medo sit a lot deeper than he currently does and I'd prevent Baptiste and Tierney from being so attacking. That might not fix every problem we have but I'm confident we'd be a bit harder to score against.

as you are slinging this around - would you care to list for us what exactly you think his qualifications are?

smokin' often talks a lot of shoite - but play the argument, not the man!! the whole stuff that gets endlessly and tediously thrown at him about coaching qualifications was SIMPLY his straightforward response to BWFCi who accused him of simply being a kid who played championship manager and knew nothing about the actual game. I have never seen smokin' boast about qualifications or use any such claim to belittle anyone else... he has never claimed to be "inside football" - however often people throw out the charge that he has said summat like that...


rant over!

Cheers, mate. The only times I've ever been a bit smug about getting something right has always been in jest - but as I seem to be permanently negative on here, I wish I was wrong more often! I don't think I know more than anyone else on here because I know how often I'm wrong. There are members of this site whose knowledge far exceeds mine, so I certainly don't have any ego or anything like that. Where certain posters are concerned, especially BWFCi, I will be a bit condescending at times but that's only because I think he's a good guy and I'm just having a bit of fun with him. That's not me being a knob, it's just a bit of banter and when I get something wrong, I hope people give it back to me too.

If people disagree with me or think I'm an arse or whatever, that's fine, I don't mind. I don't really like this accusation that I think I know more than anyone else though, because it's not true but it makes me seem like a prick. Maybe it's because I disagree with people too vehemently, I'm not sure, but I'm often wrong and I know that. I like this site and I like pretty much every poster on here, so even though we may disagree with each other at times, I never see those disagreements as anything more than friendly banter. I'd rather be wrong and see us rise up the table than be smug with us sat in the relegation zone.

Fair enough, tone on the internet and all that! Apologies if I was a little, ahem, over-zealous .

I'm about to start a new thread, I'd be interested to read what your thoughts are.

[Worthy4England]

This is great - everyone knows nowt about football. BWFCi will be along shortly to announce the last game he actually saw us in was Gillingham away in 1984.

I note though that SF's plan is to stop our full backs getting forward and sit our midfield deeper. Would we get out doing that? I thought perceived opinion amongst many was that we already sat too deep?

Certainly my percieved opinion is that we're often deeper than we'd want to be. However, I'm really nervous about pushing up too, as Wheater is slower than me.

[Enoch]

Wheater is slower than me.

Oh come on, try and keep it believable!

[thebish]

This is great - everyone knows nowt about football. BWFCi will be along shortly to announce the last game he actually saw us in was Gillingham away in 1984.

I note though that SF's plan is to stop our full backs getting forward and sit our midfield deeper. Would we get out doing that? I thought perceived opinion amongst many was that we already sat too deep?

now that counts as a very slippery phrase if every there was one!

wouldn't it just be easier to say what YOU think in response to what SF thinks?

[SmokinFrazier]

This is great - everyone knows nowt about football. BWFCi will be along shortly to announce the last game he actually saw us in was Gillingham away in 1984.

I note though that SF's plan is to stop our full backs getting forward and sit our midfield deeper. Would we get out doing that? I thought perceived opinion amongst many was that we already sat too deep?

I don't really mind defending deep, especially when you have two very slow central defenders, but at the same time, you can't just camp inside the 6 yard box and hope for the best. Compare our defence to how a manager like Mourinho sets his sides up and you'll see a clear difference. They have better players, of course, but the difference isn't about the players, it's about the system and even though they defend often deep and in numbers, they end up being a lot tighter than our defence is. We just invite pressure but because we're too deep, so it leads to a nervous defence.

I'd just keep it simple. Have Knight and Wheater stay central and compact, don't allow the full backs to get too far forward and have Medo sat right in front of the two centre backs. We need to apply pressure on their attackers outside our box because at the moment, there are far too many gaps which means we get opened up easily from passes and they can shoot freely from 20 yards. It's poor, and our awful defensive record is more of a reflection on the system than the players.