Freedman out!

[CAPSLOCK]

I just hope Gartside aint daft enough to listen to a few cretins who think changing the manager changes owt

Didn't you want a change of manager when Coyle was here?

I did

Because I knew 2 things

1 results were shite
2 everything off the pitch was shite

So, there wasn't much going for us, really

There is a massive job to be done and all I hear suggests the fella is willing and capable

[BL3]

I'd much prefer two seasons finishing 10th while he sorts it

While he 'sorts' what? You mean while he learns the job at our expense? Unless of course you think the club should just turn a blind eye whilst crowds continue to drop and the parachute payments gradually run out.

[BL3]

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem.

We weren't looking for a long term fix last season. Freedman was brought in to 'get us back on track'... ten games into the season.

[BL3]

My simple point is that if we don't start producing some talent from the academy, whatever happens given the FFP rules in this division and our lack of financial clout in the Premiership, what will happen to us?

Perhaps we should just try to get promoted and bypass the problem.

[CAPSLOCK]

The run at the end of last season was a bit misleading , we were nicking results a lot of the time, the current scenario is equally misleading . I suspect by the end of the season we will finish upper mid table and miss out on the playoffs . The more important isue than final placing will be whether the team is starting to have some shape and collective strength and whether younger players are being developed more effectively beyond the first team.In other words is a plan being put into place and does the club have some direction.That is the level on which to judge a manager here.

re Dawson or someone similar.It is what the club needs, not a quick fix.I genuinely believe a solid organiser at the back and a striker who knows where the goal is would transform the players we have.Fingers crossed freedman can get someone in on loan.

Saved my fingers

Top post

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Is Poyet that much more experienced than Dougie?

[BL3]

Is Poyet that much more experienced than Dougie?

He's more successful.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Is Poyet that much more experienced than Dougie?

He's more successful.

How?

[Gravedigger]

I have a feeling in my water that ffp will get so watered down, no pun intended, at the behest of the upper echelon of clubs as to be soon forgotten. Remember the bloody silly if the goalie holds the ball over a set period of time, in seconds, he would be penalised? The only team ever to suffer from that was us, then it was swept under the carpet as unworkable. Dougie's hands are financially tied and as a club we will never be free of Eddie's debt and there must come a time when Eddie will have to close his wallet for good. To bring younguns through is not a short term exercise and it looks like we'll be in the financial mire for the coming how long. If he is going to have to build from the ground up, as appears to be the case, then we'll have to fight to even stay in this division. The CP fan who popped up last season warned us that Dougie goes for defence all the time and can be frustrating in the way he manages. We just have to be patient and hope that all will come good in time for a push upwards.

[CAPSLOCK]

The CP fan who popped up last season warned us that Dougie goes for defence all the time and can be frustrating in the way he manages.

The Palace fan should've watched us on Tuesday cos that wasn't 'defence all the time'

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us.

even if we accept your figures - then that makes us 4th biggest budget - and by your reckoning (budget=success) - very likely to make the playoffs..

playoffs (like the early rounds of cup competitions) are surely not so budget-dependent as they involve on a few games and are more of a lottery..

all of which should mean we are in with a very good chance of promotion, no?

problem is - we're actually bottom of the league...

But I'm trying to talk long term. Forget who the manager is, or should be or anything like that or current performance.

My basic point is that we need to get the youth setup right now, because in a couple of years if we haven't and aren't bringing those players through I can see it becoming very hard indeed. FFP has changed the picture. If it stays it doesn't help us much, in fact it makes it harder. And if we manage to go up the point still stands. We would need new investment OR to start producing our own players.

yes - all of that is true - but you keep saying we can't compete financially and that that has some kind of an impact on where we are now.

even by your figures - we clearly CAN compete financially - this season - you have us as the club with the 4th highest budget in the league.

it's you who makes the 1-1 link between budget and success... given that - we should finish in the playoffs this season,. no?

That isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to project forward.

This season there are teams "outspending us". I'm not using that as an excuse. This isn't about saying we should or shouldn't keep the manager.

It is about the fact that to me at least if we want to compete in the future we need an advantage over sides who will inevitably have more spending power than us. The best and most sustainable chance of gaining that advantage is to bring through our own players.

[Gravedigger]

The CP fan who popped up last season warned us that Dougie goes for defence all the time and can be frustrating in the way he manages.

The Palace fan should've watched us on Tuesday cos that wasn't 'defence all the time'

He was probably watching Palace.

[BL3]

Is Poyet that much more experienced than Dougie?

He's more successful.

How?

Won promotion with Brighton when they were still operating on a shoestring budget at The Withdean. Got them into the play-offs with a net spend over the last two seasons of half what we spent in the last transfer window alone.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Fair enough. I don't think it exactly sets him head and shoulders above Freedman (not that I'm saying Freedman is ace/the messiah).

I would add that Poyet comes across as a bit of an egotistical cock. I don't think we'd gain enough of a benefit from hiring him and firing Dougie for me to want him at our club.

[thebish]

The run at the end of last season was a bit misleading , we were nicking results a lot of the time, the current scenario is equally misleading . I suspect by the end of the season we will finish upper mid table and miss out on the playoffs . The more important isue than final placing will be whether the team is starting to have some shape and collective strength and whether younger players are being developed more effectively beyond the first team.In other words is a plan being put into place and does the club have some direction.That is the level on which to judge a manager here.

this is what I HOPE is happening - and I have resisted calls for dougie to be sacked - really only based on gut-feeling and fed-upness with sacking managers...

I'm glad CAPS has heard top secret ITK stuff that he says confirms this is happening.

in the face of results - it's a tough position to hold - I have a thickish skin, but it would be a whole lot easier if I could see some kind of evidence..

f'rinstance - in what way is dougie developing younger players more effectively than they have been developed before??

[thebish]

That isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to project forward.

This season there are teams "outspending us". I'm not using that as an excuse. This isn't about saying we should or shouldn't keep the manager.

i'm not talking about keeping or not keeping the manager.

you have consistently said that bigger budget = bigger success.

this season (you say) we have the 4th biggest budget - so - surely - this season (never mind the future for the purposes of this particular point) - we SHOULD (by your budget logic) fairly easily make the playoffs? no?

unless, of course, bigger budget does NOT equal bigger success...

[BWFC_Insane]

That isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to project forward.

This season there are teams "outspending us". I'm not using that as an excuse. This isn't about saying we should or shouldn't keep the manager.

i'm not talking about keeping or not keeping the manager.

you have consistently said that bigger budget = bigger success.

this season (you say) we have the 4th biggest budget - so - surely - this season (never mind the future for the purposes of this particular point) - we SHOULD (by your budget logic) fairly easily make the playoffs? no?

unless, of course, bigger budget does NOT equal bigger success...

Clearly its not an exact correlation. But I think league position in the premiership over a period of seasons was studied and found to correlate to wage bill pretty strongly (think it was about 80% plus). Of course there are always outliers.

But if the effect of FFP over the coming years is to constrain clubs to match their spending to their income and assuming we follow the rules, the general direction of travel is cheaper players, lower wage bill, less spending. And over a period of time, clubs that when all other things are equal have bigger crowds and therefore bigger budgets you would assume will find it easier.

So we need to prepare for that. The fact Eddie has apparently stopped the spending anyway, means we would need to be ready in any case.

The other way to look at it, is that this is the last season where we have the chance to do everything we can to maximise our chances of going up. So what does that involve and are the club prepared to do it?

[thebish]

That isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to project forward.

This season there are teams "outspending us". I'm not using that as an excuse. This isn't about saying we should or shouldn't keep the manager.

i'm not talking about keeping or not keeping the manager.

you have consistently said that bigger budget = bigger success.

this season (you say) we have the 4th biggest budget - so - surely - this season (never mind the future for the purposes of this particular point) - we SHOULD (by your budget logic) fairly easily make the playoffs? no?

unless, of course, bigger budget does NOT equal bigger success...

Clearly its not an exact correlation. But I think league position in the premiership over a period of seasons was studied and found to correlate to wage bill pretty strongly (think it was about 80% plus). Of course there are always outliers.

clearly not - i have allowed places 4 and 5 too - those would still be in the playoffs! the logic of your reasoning is that with our budget this season in this league we SHOULD make the playoffs - no? if not - then i am not sure what your repeated "we can't compete financially in this league" actually means...

[BWFC_Insane]

clearly not - i have allowed places 4 and 5 too - those would still be in the playoffs! the logic of your reasoning is that with our budget this season in this league we SHOULD make the playoffs - no? if not - then i am not sure what your repeated "we can't compete financially in this league" actually means...

I'm saying that every year we're in this league the number of sides with bigger budgets than ourselves is likely to increase.

And our ability to "buy our way out" becomes non-existent. We don't seem to have the ability to do that this season. It will get worse in that respect, I suspect.

You are correct in saying that we should make the play-offs. But as you also say that is no guarantee.

Playing devils advocate, it is the last year of our parachute payments, well last year before they reduce substantially, should we not have followed Forest's example and spent 5/6M plus to have one last real go? And this is not to say that we shouldn't be good enough as we are, I'm stating that we haven't gone balls out for it financially and therefore, as our income decreases we need something to make sure we compete with the Forest's of the world, if that isn't matching they buying power.

[Wandering Willy]

I just hope Gartside aint daft enough to listen to a few cretins who think changing the manager changes owt

Didn't you want a change of manager when Coyle was here?

I did

Because I knew 2 things

1 results were shite
2 everything off the pitch was shite

So, there wasn't much going for us, really

There is a massive job to be done and all I hear suggests the fella is willing and capable

Well,

1. The results are shite
2. I hope you're right about the off the field stuff about Freedman - we're not seeing it on the pitch at the moment.