The Great Art Debate

[bobo the clown]

There is one person in shorts, but there are v few youngsters on there. Also a lot of women. That's not how it was in my early days. I''m sure that'd be unusual in 1953 when there was a 5.5day week and most factory workers were in work on Saturday morning and went to the game often directly.

I don't recall the Lever End being unroofed, but I guess it was at one point. The openness must be false as the short terraces by that end were built some time before the war, possibly around WW1.

St Peter's Way wouldn't be there of course and I don't recall what was there prior but it would not be as open as the picture suggests.

.... & where's the Happy Shop ?!?! (that's a joke btw)

[Always hopeful]

Write to the the buggers and put em straight...

I got my dad a print of that for his birthday - he was pleased...

Another time I found a reproduction of the Tube advert for Wembley 1926... The FA Challenge Cup final - Go on the Underground... Nice design though) He was born in 1926 and 3 months later we won the cup... He liked that an all...

Didn't necessarily do well with the other 82 birthdays tho...

Ah, what's the point... they obviously don't think the detail is important. The catalogue is an interesting enough read, and in many respects I think they did a good job under difficult circumstances - i.e. this bizarre divide between Lowry champions and Lowry haters - but they are two American-based art historians who will not be interested in Bolton Wanderers.

'Going to The Match' is an interesting picture for all sorts of reasons, though.

Oddly, there isn't a single good picture of it online.

This is about the best (and even this doesn't show the 'RS' of 'Wanderers' - the wording and setting not disimilar 40 years later when I started going to Burnden with my dad).



A couple of questions:

1. Was it ever really as 'open' as that around the ground? I remember a car park where everyone is walking in the picture, but to the right, and beyond right?
2. How common was it for young lads to go to the match in 1953? One of the striking things for me about the painting is that, upon closer examination, there are no children. I think I was looking for a dad and lad pairing so I could place myself and my old man in the picture, but there is none.

Anyway, I do like it and may well get a print for my house. For me it stands out as being one of the rare successes of his work post WW2 work. There's something about the way he's got the figures being drawn to Burnden like iron filings to a magnet that just gets the atmosphere right somehow.

Interestingly, there is stronger Bolton (town, not football club) connection than I was aware of.

The following, in the catalogue, was from him reminiscing in conversation about when he first became enamoured with the industrial landscape... I will have to type it out because it's not on the internet:

I did a lot of walking in those days [before WW1], I was a good walker. And almost every Saturday night, particularly in winter, I would walk from Pendlebury to Bolton. I chose Saturday night because there was more life on a Saturday night, and I chose Bolton because I thought - still think - it's more alive than Bury and other places. I used to set out about half past four, walk to Bolton, go to a cafe and look around and drift back some way, possibly by train, all sorts of ways. At Kearsley there used to be a colliery that went right across the road. As you walked towards the colliery you could hear the clanking and thump of the engines getting louder and louder, and then you would be on it, and then you would pass it and the sounds would fade. I would carry that impression in my mind all the way to Bolton and it would be with me when I sat down in Seymour Mead's cafe, and I suppose I would forget it in the main streets because I liked the life and the bustle. But it would come back to me as I made my way home.That's how my obsession with the industrial scene started: Saturday night, walking the road to Bolton, and hearing the thump, thump,of the machine at Kearlsey Colliery. And coming back in the dark: thinking and thinking, thinking of the mystery of it all.

Absolutely not. My Mum (75 yesterday don't you know), tells tales of how after a match the streets were that narrow and cramped that her feet didn't touch the floor for a good few hundred yards away from the ground as the crowds were so tightly packed together.

That painting annoys me somewhat. It strikes me that Lowry might have walked past Burnden one day and tried to recreate what he saw, but had little recollection of it.

Artistic licence? Doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So should I not ask about the number of bowler hats then?!

[bobo the clown]

So should I not ask about the number of bowler hats then?!

That'd be the foremen .... looking for the skivers who chucked a sickie that morning.

[TANGODANCER]

Any number of Burnden pics here:

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I reckon the Lowry pic was painted purely as a suggestion, with the emphasis all on the crowds and activity. I doubt he bothered for photographic accuracy of any sort and just tried to give an impression of the bustle of match day in an industrial area. Filings to a magnet idea, as Mummy suggested. You wouldn't get that angle of view unless you were floating way up above the King Bill or somewhere. With that much detail he sure didn't paint it on site at all in my view. He was also careful not to call it "Going to Burnden" so he was pretty safe really. I'd say Burnden put the idea in his head and he took it from there.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Filings to a magnet idea, as Will suggested.

Erm?!


And yes, I wasn't talking about the accuracy or otherwise of the streets as implied criticism... I was just curious and will look at the photos tomorrow.

[TANGODANCER]

Filings to a magnet idea, as Will suggested.

Erm?!


And yes, I wasn't talking about the accuracy or otherwise of the streets as implied criticism... I was just curious and will look at the photos tomorrow.

Sorry mate. Edited.

[TANGODANCER]

"Football Club Co Ld....?

[Montreal Wanderer]

It certainly wasn't that open in 1953 nor was the front that shabby. I suspect he was just using artistic license as has been suggested. However, it really only interests us because it is Burnden - we probably would not think of it as much of a work of art unless you are into stick figures.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

^ It's dreadful. Truly awful. I'll never understand the popularity of Lowry. Went to an exhibition of his at Salford Uni some years ago and discovered to my horror that with the passing of time he actually managed to produce work that got progressively worse.That terrace to the right - the roofless Lever End - could you point out to me how, without the aid of a rope ladder, spectators are meant to take up their positions?

I definitely agree that the overall trajectory of his work was decline.

With those pictures of everyday life at street level in the 20s and 30s he was anticipating the soap opera, built around that northern and working class habit of being nosy about what's going out in the densely populated area around you.

After that, I do wonder what the point of his pictures is, for the most part...

The great Brian had this to say when review this latest exhibition:

“I was happiest in the Twenties,” Lowry once said, “and I don’t see why I should take leave of them! Not in my painting, at any rate.” And there we have it. Over and over again Lowry painted life in Lancashire in the Twenties, the accumulated recollections of the streets repeated, adjusted, refined and, eventually, caricatured. Laura Knight (1877-1970), as much a painter of modern life as he, so much loathed his pictures that she opposed his election as a Royal Academician in 1962. She could see only endless repetition of limited ideas, the stilted caricatures and the mocking cruelty of his morbid interest in cripples

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For those who are actually interested in these things, it tends to be a pain in the arse when exhibitions are hung like this one, with paintings grouped by spurious themes, rather than simply in chronological order.

I feel as though the viewing public would have a much better chance of grouping the work into themes in our minds than we do separating them out into date order in our heads.

[William the White]

I like it. Maybe in partbecause it's based on Burnden. I think comments about its accuracy are misplaced. It's a painting. If you want photographic accuracy look at a photograph.

Ir does achieve a sense of community, purpose, collective gathering, focused on the game. And that sense of community, gathering together for a purpose we care about is why I go to watch my team rather than subscribe to Sky. I understand this painting. it speaks to me and for me.

It also tells a tale of working class Bolton, the 'stick figures' are emerging from little houses in a proletarian world. It's a neglected subject, and at the heart of Lowry's achievement - especially in his industrial landscapes, that I think have a real power, stemming from the truth of northern life he depicts.

[TANGODANCER]

I like it. Maybe in partbecause it's based on Burnden. I think comments about its accuracy are misplaced. It's a painting. If you want photographic accuracy look at a photograph.

Ir does achieve a sense of community, purpose, collective gathering, focused on the game. And that sense of community, gathering together for a purpose we care about is why I go to watch my team rather than subscribe to Sky. I understand this painting. it speaks to me and for me.

It also tells a tale of working class Bolton, the 'stick figures' are emerging from little houses in a proletarian world. It's a neglected subject, and at the heart of Lowry's achievement - especially in his industrial landscapes, that I think have a real power, stemming from the truth of northern life he depicts.

I'm leaning towards that view Will. I remember Burnden Park in the 50's. Not as many cars at all and the match crowds stopped the buses. We either caught the 24 from Halliwell and walked over Orlando Bridge, or the No1 from Church Road and walked down Weston Street. It was all about crowds and I think that's Lowrie's aim. I look at the painting and I can almost smell the sulpherous clouds of steam from the trains on the embankment end. Happy days.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I like it. Maybe in partbecause it's based on Burnden. I think comments about its accuracy are misplaced. It's a painting. If you want photographic accuracy look at a photograph.

Ir does achieve a sense of community, purpose, collective gathering, focused on the game. And that sense of community, gathering together for a purpose we care about is why I go to watch my team rather than subscribe to Sky. I understand this painting. it speaks to me and for me.

It also tells a tale of working class Bolton, the 'stick figures' are emerging from little houses in a proletarian world. It's a neglected subject, and at the heart of Lowry's achievement - especially in his industrial landscapes, that I think have a real power, stemming from the truth of northern life he depicts.

Yeah, I'll go for that. I can't deny that I am biased in its favour because it's based on Burnden and not one of the other Lancashire/Greater Manchester grounds.

I agree too about the 'purpose' and I don't think that would be achievable using more conventionally depicted figures - you would lose that sense of them all bent over and leaning into their direction of travel.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

What I hadn't appreciated until seeing the pencil drawings they have on display at the Tate is what a fine draughtsman he was. Have you ever seen any of these, Will?

[Bruce Rioja]

I like it. Maybe in partbecause it's based on Burnden. I think comments about its accuracy are misplaced. It's a painting. If you want photographic accuracy look at a photograph.

Ir does achieve a sense of community, purpose, collective gathering, focused on the game. And that sense of community, gathering together for a purpose we care about is why I go to watch my team rather than subscribe to Sky. I understand this painting. it speaks to me and for me.

It also tells a tale of working class Bolton, the 'stick figures' are emerging from little houses in a proletarian world. It's a neglected subject, and at the heart of Lowry's achievement - especially in his industrial landscapes, that I think have a real power, stemming from the truth of northern life he depicts.

Yeah, I'll go for that. I can't deny that I am biased in its favour because it's based on Burnden and not one of the other Lancashire/Greater Manchester grounds.

I agree too about the 'purpose' and I don't think that would be achievable using more conventionally depicted figures - you would lose that sense of them all bent over and leaning into their direction of travel.

No one's come up with an answer as to how anyone's meant to have got onto the terrace yet. Or back off of it.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I like it. Maybe in partbecause it's based on Burnden. I think comments about its accuracy are misplaced. It's a painting. If you want photographic accuracy look at a photograph.

Ir does achieve a sense of community, purpose, collective gathering, focused on the game. And that sense of community, gathering together for a purpose we care about is why I go to watch my team rather than subscribe to Sky. I understand this painting. it speaks to me and for me.

It also tells a tale of working class Bolton, the 'stick figures' are emerging from little houses in a proletarian world. It's a neglected subject, and at the heart of Lowry's achievement - especially in his industrial landscapes, that I think have a real power, stemming from the truth of northern life he depicts.

Yeah, I'll go for that. I can't deny that I am biased in its favour because it's based on Burnden and not one of the other Lancashire/Greater Manchester grounds.

I agree too about the 'purpose' and I don't think that would be achievable using more conventionally depicted figures - you would lose that sense of them all bent over and leaning into their direction of travel.

No one's come up with an answer as to how anyone's meant to have got onto the terrace yet. Or back off of it.

Presumably there are steps up the side that can't be seen through the outer wall on the near side, and standing people on the far side?!

[Prufrock]

I always want to like Lowry but does nothing for me!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I always want to like Lowry but does nothing for me!

Go to the exhibition and see his earlier work.

The argument the curators put forward for his 'Frenchness' will also appeal to you.

I'll lend you the catalogue if you want, but the effect isn't the same, of course.

[Bruce Rioja]

Presumably there are steps up the side that can't be seen through the outer wall on the near side, and standing people on the far side?!

I really have no idea why you've just come out with that. It simply doesn't even begin to stack up.

[bobo the clown]

Presumably there are steps up the side that can't be seen through the outer wall on the near side, and standing people on the far side?!

[/quote]I'm not sure it's an architecturally accurate piece of work, to be quite honest. I though you were the one who saw beyond the canvas.