PLYMOUTH'S stupendously all singing dancing transfer thread!

[thebish]

All these players to one extent or another are the ones who have failed us for the past few years. Eagles may get a reprieve due to his performances last season particularly during the run in.

But I'm guessing that the club are simply accepting that failure needs rooting out. And I don't believe there can be real and sustained change at the club without a fresh outlook and radically new personnel. We've tried the patch up and mend for a while now and it hasn't really worked.

Need to build a new attitude at the club and the likes of NGog, Lee, Knight, and possibly Eagles don't necessarily fit with that.

I'm slightly confused now... I thought you were a BIG Eagles and Ngog fan?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Just been reading Nixon's tweets. According to him we are planning a clear out in January or the summer depending upon when we can get rid of players.

Eagles, NGog and Knight out of contract in the summer. Won't be kept. Flogged in January if possible.
Chungy, Wheater and Mears also players Dougie is trying to move on over the next window or two.

Big changes.

If that happens, it'll be disastrous for the club. We need to keep the quality we have, not get rid of them and replace them with mediocre players because they have the 'right attitude'. If this plan comes to fruition, and I hope it doesn't, it's an awful sign of the clubs lack of ambition. These rumours stink of Freedman wanting to ship out the players who have no faith in his managerial ability, and their poor performances back up that idea.

If Dougie is a failure then these players must surely go under something more than failure? I mean, they've failed for twice as long as Dougie. Did they have no faith in the previous manager as well. Do they have faith in themselves? Give me a mediocre player willing to fight for the cause and his team mates over more talented but don't use it because they can't be arsed, rather be playing ping pong and buying chavvy cars and bling.

Whether Dougie stays or goes, those players need to leave for our club to deal with it's malaise.

[boltonboris]

See, I think it's a tough one.

If you have 11 shit players, that work hard. all you've got is a shit, but hard working team. They never do anything, other than generally, be pretty shit.

You DO need players with genuine ability to progress, but you also need the grafters around them,. to let them play.

I wouldn't be looking at getting rid of Eagles any time soon. And If Dougie can't get feck all out of Chungy and co, he needs to have a look at himself aswell as the players.

when good players were playing shit under previous managers, it was always labelled the managers fault (I'm looking at you BWFCI). What's changed?

[BWFC_Insane]

So what you're saying is that after all that, and given we don't have many resources to continually add without losing some first, we should stick with NGog, Lee, Knight etc etc and just give them more time? Really?

You're one of the people who, rightly, has defended N'Gog because you've seen his abilities. Is it his fault that a manager who doesn't have a clue what he's doing decides to play him up front on his own? We both know that's a terrible selection and I'm sure N'Gog is as frustrated by it as we are. How can you expect players to perform to their best ability when you put them in such positions? Picking N'Gog as a lone striker is inexcusable because as good as he can be, his abilities just don't suit that role.

NGog has had enough chances. He has ability but it is always nearly but not quite. My patience with him has run out. I don't think he applies himself in the best way and isn't looking to do the work necessary anymore. Against Yeovil he was constantly offside making no effort to get back onside.

He's been a passenger this season.

What the loan players have shown is all the ability in the world (and NGog, Lee, Eagles etc aren't THAT good) doesn't make up for a lack of desire and some guts.

[BWFC_Insane]

See, I think it's a tough one.

If you have 11 shit players, that work hard. all you've got is a shit, but hard working team. They never do anything, other than generally, be pretty shit.

You DO need players with genuine ability to progress, but you also need the grafters around them,. to let them play.

I wouldn't be looking at getting rid of Eagles any time soon. And If Dougie can't get feck all out of Chungy and co, he needs to have a look at himself aswell as the players.

when good players were playing shit under previous managers, it was always labelled the managers fault (I'm looking at you BWFCI). What's changed?

We can change the manager but for me I still want these players shipping out. They're not world beaters. Feeney (a Milwall reserve) has excited me more in 2 games than LCY has in a season and a bit under two different managers. If that is all Feeney does in his three months here it'll be more than Lee has contributed this season so far in entirety.

Sick of certain players taking the piss and getting away with it.

Eagles as I say is one who gets more credit because he genuinely tried to drag us over the line last season. But I think his issue is more that he will be expensive is out of contract and probably wants a move.

[Bruce Rioja]

I've said before, I think that Chungy's only really looked like a fish out of water since Tierney's arrived. Tierney goes on the overlap and Chungy's stood there with his cock in his hand not knowing what to do. Douglas is surely able to see this but doesn't seem to have addressed it.
It'll be interesting to see how he plays now that Tierney's crocked.

[thebish]

I've said before, I think that Chungy's only really looked like a fish out of water since Tierney's arrived. Tierney goes on the overlap and Chungy's stood there with his cock in his hand not knowing what to do. Douglas is surely able to see this but doesn't seem to have addressed it.
It'll be interesting to see how he plays now that Tierney's crocked.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

See, I think it's a tough one.

If you have 11 shit players, that work hard. all you've got is a shit, but hard working team. They never do anything, other than generally, be pretty shit.

You DO need players with genuine ability to progress, but you also need the grafters around them,. to let them play.

I wouldn't be looking at getting rid of Eagles any time soon. And If Dougie can't get feck all out of Chungy and co, he needs to have a look at himself aswell as the players.

when good players were playing shit under previous managers, it was always labelled the managers fault (I'm looking at you BWFCI). What's changed?

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. I think Eagles should stay, but I reckon he'll be off rather than sign a new contract (presumably for less). Something needs to change though, and I'm not convinced simply changing the manager (again) will make that much difference. For me, either a clear out of players, or a clear out of players and manager. I'd prefer the former on the basis of sooner or later we've got to stick with a manager sometime and I'm not convinced we'd get anyone any better than we have now.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've said before, I think that Chungy's only really looked like a fish out of water since Tierney's arrived. Tierney goes on the overlap and Chungy's stood there with his cock in his hand not knowing what to do. Douglas is surely able to see this but doesn't seem to have addressed it.
It'll be interesting to see how he plays now that Tierney's crocked.

Alonso overlapped as much as Tierney if not more.

Personally I think Lee was poor for the vast majority of last season.

[Bruce Rioja]

I've said before, I think that Chungy's only really looked like a fish out of water since Tierney's arrived. Tierney goes on the overlap and Chungy's stood there with his cock in his hand not knowing what to do. Douglas is surely able to see this but doesn't seem to have addressed it.
It'll be interesting to see how he plays now that Tierney's crocked.

Alonso overlapped as much as Tierney if not more.

Personally I think Lee was poor for the vast majority of last season.

You reckon? I don't. Lee hasn't been the same player since his injury for sure, but he looked a lot better last season than this.

[SmokinFrazier]

So what you're saying is that after all that, and given we don't have many resources to continually add without losing some first, we should stick with NGog, Lee, Knight etc etc and just give them more time? Really?

You're one of the people who, rightly, has defended N'Gog because you've seen his abilities. Is it his fault that a manager who doesn't have a clue what he's doing decides to play him up front on his own? We both know that's a terrible selection and I'm sure N'Gog is as frustrated by it as we are. How can you expect players to perform to their best ability when you put them in such positions? Picking N'Gog as a lone striker is inexcusable because as good as he can be, his abilities just don't suit that role.

NGog has had enough chances. He has ability but it is always nearly but not quite. My patience with him has run out. I don't think he applies himself in the best way and isn't looking to do the work necessary anymore. Against Yeovil he was constantly offside making no effort to get back onside.

He's been a passenger this season.

What the loan players have shown is all the ability in the world (and NGog, Lee, Eagles etc aren't THAT good) doesn't make up for a lack of desire and some guts.

N'Gog has been playing but what does that matter when he's being played in a position which doesn't suit him? He could be played as a lone striker every game for the rest of the season but it doesn't mean he's going to grow into that role. He isn't a natural goalscorer and his movement isn't right for a lone striker either, so why play him in that role? It's not N'Gog's fault that the role doesn't suit him, it's Freedman's fault for playing him.

You can do a search on this and find countless posters on this forum state that N'Gog isn't a loan striker. You know that's the case too, so why does Freedman insist on playing him as one? You can't just say "N'Gog has been bad, get rid of him" when you've defended his ability in the past because he still has that ability, it just isn't being shown because he isn't suited to the role he's being asked to perform. He's not suddenly become crap since last season, there are reasons why he's underperforming. The same goes for Chungy too. Why play him on the left when he's a natural right winger? Some wingers can play that role but others can't, and Chungy is one of them. It's alright moaning about his lack of good games but if he isn't a left winger, why can we expect him to be able to perform on the left?

The players are underperforming, there's no doubt about that. The questions that should be asked is "why". Why are so many of our players not doing what they're capable of? They haven't suddenly become average players, there are reasons behind their performances.

[thebish]

N'Gog has been playing but what does that matter when he's being played in a position which doesn't suit him? He could be played as a lone striker every game for the rest of the season but it doesn't mean he's going to grow into that role. He isn't a natural goalscorer and his movement isn't right for a lone striker either, so why play him in that role? It's not N'Gog's fault that the role doesn't suit him, it's Freedman's fault for playing him.

hmmm.... so, what do we do? build the whole formation around N'gog - this - non-scoring - not-able-to-play-on-his-own striker who can't adapt his movement to suit a different formation?

i wouldn't be tempted to build a whole side around a striker who can't score. there must be a better way!

[SmokinFrazier]

N'Gog has been playing but what does that matter when he's being played in a position which doesn't suit him? He could be played as a lone striker every game for the rest of the season but it doesn't mean he's going to grow into that role. He isn't a natural goalscorer and his movement isn't right for a lone striker either, so why play him in that role? It's not N'Gog's fault that the role doesn't suit him, it's Freedman's fault for playing him.

hmmm.... so, what do we do? build the whole formation around N'gog - this - non-scoring - not-able-to-play-on-his-own striker who can't adapt his movement to suit a different formation?

i wouldn't be tempted to build a whole side around a striker who can't score. there must be a better way!

I'd play a 4-4-2 with N'Gog being there to create chances for Beckford but if we have to play a lone striker, it'd be either Davies or Beckford for me. I think it's unfair to criticise N'Gog for underperforming in that role when it clearly doesn't suit him.

[BWFC_Insane]

So what you're saying is that after all that, and given we don't have many resources to continually add without losing some first, we should stick with NGog, Lee, Knight etc etc and just give them more time? Really?

You're one of the people who, rightly, has defended N'Gog because you've seen his abilities. Is it his fault that a manager who doesn't have a clue what he's doing decides to play him up front on his own? We both know that's a terrible selection and I'm sure N'Gog is as frustrated by it as we are. How can you expect players to perform to their best ability when you put them in such positions? Picking N'Gog as a lone striker is inexcusable because as good as he can be, his abilities just don't suit that role.

NGog has had enough chances. He has ability but it is always nearly but not quite. My patience with him has run out. I don't think he applies himself in the best way and isn't looking to do the work necessary anymore. Against Yeovil he was constantly offside making no effort to get back onside.

He's been a passenger this season.

What the loan players have shown is all the ability in the world (and NGog, Lee, Eagles etc aren't THAT good) doesn't make up for a lack of desire and some guts.

N'Gog has been playing but what does that matter when he's being played in a position which doesn't suit him? He could be played as a lone striker every game for the rest of the season but it doesn't mean he's going to grow into that role. He isn't a natural goalscorer and his movement isn't right for a lone striker either, so why play him in that role? It's not N'Gog's fault that the role doesn't suit him, it's Freedman's fault for playing him.

You can do a search on this and find countless posters on this forum state that N'Gog isn't a loan striker. You know that's the case too, so why does Freedman insist on playing him as one? You can't just say "N'Gog has been bad, get rid of him" when you've defended his ability in the past because he still has that ability, it just isn't being shown because he isn't suited to the role he's being asked to perform. He's not suddenly become crap since last season, there are reasons why he's underperforming. The same goes for Chungy too. Why play him on the left when he's a natural right winger? Some wingers can play that role but others can't, and Chungy is one of them. It's alright moaning about his lack of good games but if he isn't a left winger, why can we expect him to be able to perform on the left?

The players are underperforming, there's no doubt about that. The questions that should be asked is "why". Why are so many of our players not doing what they're capable of? They haven't suddenly become average players, there are reasons behind their performances.

NGog played up front with Beckford at Blackburn. The problem was that having done the NGog thing of running half the length of the pitch with the ball and rounding the keeper he passed it straight to a defender on the line. So I don't see how playing in a 1 or 2 or 6 will change the problems in his game.

You say our players haven't "suddenly become average players" I'd say you're right. They've always been average players. It is why they are plying their trade at a championship club and have been for two years.

It is why nobody has offered serious money for them. Why Knight wasn't offered a deal anywhere else but here.

Thats my view. It isn't that they're completely useless. But the talent they have is let down. In NGog's case by his lack of finishing and seeming "mental and physical fragility". Lee by well, his injury but also I'm detecting an attitude of "I'm better than this". Eagles by inconsistency, Knight by not being very good and not being brave enough. And so on.

How come we introduce 3 players unwanted elsewhere and we manage 4 points from two tough away games, a first win and suddenly look at the very least hard to beat? Something we hadn't managed for the rest of the season?

[thebish]

N'Gog has been playing but what does that matter when he's being played in a position which doesn't suit him? He could be played as a lone striker every game for the rest of the season but it doesn't mean he's going to grow into that role. He isn't a natural goalscorer and his movement isn't right for a lone striker either, so why play him in that role? It's not N'Gog's fault that the role doesn't suit him, it's Freedman's fault for playing him.

hmmm.... so, what do we do? build the whole formation around N'gog - this - non-scoring - not-able-to-play-on-his-own striker who can't adapt his movement to suit a different formation?

i wouldn't be tempted to build a whole side around a striker who can't score. there must be a better way!

I'd play a 4-4-2 with N'Gog being there to create chances for Beckford but if we have to play a lone striker, it'd be either Davies or Beckford for me. I think it's unfair to criticise N'Gog for underperforming in that role when it clearly doesn't suit him.

if what Nixon says is true - then Dougie isn't criticising him - he's offloading him because we don't want a massive earner sat on the bench while he plays 4-5-1.

even you'd say that was reasonable, no?

also - not being able to hold the ball up, not being a great tackler, not being able to adapt your movement, not being able to head the ball and not being a natural goalscorer - NONE of those things leads me to conclude that he is the one we should build the formation around. Can we afford the luxury of such a limited striker? what exactly CAN he do?

Are you sure he is the only one who could provide the service Beckford needs? Moritz? wasn't that supposed to be HIS job? Mavis?

[SmokinFrazier]

You say our players haven't "suddenly become average players" I'd say you're right. They've always been average players. It is why they are plying their trade at a championship club and have been for two years.

It is why nobody has offered serious money for them. Why Knight wasn't offered a deal anywhere else but here.

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either. Eagles, N'Gog, Wheater, Spearing, Ream, Pratley, Knight, Bogdan and Chungy have all proven their ability at a higher level. Fair enough, they aren't all brilliant individuals - and I think Knight is on a rapid decline due to age - but they're mostly capable of being solid players in a division higher than what we're currently at. They aren't average players by Championship standards.

And teams don't want them because our shop window has been smeared with shite. No manager is going to look at our team and be impressed by the individuals when they're low on confidence, playing in positions which don't suit them, being switched around every week and being guided by an inept manager. The one player who did move to another Championship club this year was Andrews, who many of us slated for being useless and by all accounts, he's done very well at a club performing much better than us. Was Andrews "average" too, or was he being made to look far worse than he is?

[jaffka]

If it's right, Duggie is 100% in getting rid of this shite including the biggest turd ndogshit

[Bruce Rioja]

Eagles, N'Gog, Wheater, Spearing, Ream, Pratley, Knight, Bogdan and Chungy have all proven their ability at a higher level.

With the exception of Chungy I'd say that each of the players you've mentioned there were all proven to be out of their depth at a higher level.

[thebish]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

[SmokinFrazier]

if what Nixon says is true - then Dougie isn't criticising him - he's offloading him because we don't want a massive earner sat on the bench while he plays 4-5-1.

even you'd say that was reasonable, no?

I'd say Freedman's insistence on 4-5-1 is unreasonable, yes. Part of my problem with Freedman is that he's inflexible; he likes N'Gog and rates him highly but despite him not suiting the role of a lone striker, Freedman stubbornly insisted on that selection anyway and it didn't work. Then Freedman's answer was to switch to a 4-5-1 with Beckford as the lone striker and is possibly getting rid of N'Gog - why? Had our best form under Freedman all come when we were playing that formation, I'd have no issue with him being pigheaded about it but that clearly isn't the case. Freedman wants to play 4-5-1, despite it not being as effective, and is willing to ship out one of the players he rates highly in order to do that. That's not good management at all, it just highlights how stubborn and inflexible Freedman is.

Freedman's plans were clear before the start of the season, which is why he brought Moritz in. He had no intention of playing a 4-4-2

Are you sure he is the only one who could provide the service Beckford needs? Moritz? wasn't that supposed to be HIS job? Mavis?

I'm sure Davies could, yeah, but he's the only one with that ability, I think. I don't rate Moritz so far and I'm not keen on Eagles in that role either. Again, this begs the question of why Freedman insists on playing 4-5-1 when Moritz and Davies are out injured. If those players are the ones who can create chances from behind the striker, then why insist on playing the same formation when you lack they aren't in the team?

One of Coyle's biggest mistakes as a manager was refusing to go with the 4-5-1 formation when it clearly worked much better for us in the Premier League. We're in that same predicament again; we have a formation which works, players which suit it and yet the stubborn manager refuses to play it because he prefers a different style.