PLYMOUTH'S stupendously all singing dancing transfer thread!

[thebish]

or....

maybe for the money we are paying Ngog to be a severely limited striker (you snipped the bit where I asked you just what Ngog CAN do!) - we can pay a couple of players who will do a better job in the system dougie is developing...

seems quite reasonable to me

[StaffsTrotter]

see the 'players/ managers fault' debate has shifted to the transfer thread.

I'm really curious as to some of the views on here regarding Dougie and the convinction that that he is the doctor with the ultimate prescription for BWFC. For the record, I'm still not fully decided but erring more to the unconvinced based on what I've experienced so far.

Other than him being the manager and therefore he should be backed, or pure blind faith, can you tell me what evidence you can point to, to demonstrate that DF knows and can be trusted to do what he's reportedly doing ? I don't hear other managers or players talk about him in reverential terms. Hes not seemed able to get the best out of a good selection of decent mature players. His verbage and actions often seem contradictory.

Really I want to believe - convince me.

[SmokinFrazier]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

[thebish]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

well - truth is - I don't think there is a binary choice - EITHER it's the players who are crap - OR - it's the manager who is crap. sometimes there is an unfortunate combination of both. freedman isn't perfect - i have been quite balanced (I think) in criticising him - not idolising him, but also not yelling hysterically for his head every ten minutes... life is surely not always a simple choice of two extremes

I'm not sure the players are POOR - too much hyperbole floats around about players being utterly crap - but quite often (I think) players can be flakey and easily unsettled by systems or formations or tactics they have convinced themselves they are not capable of performing in.. when was it that players became so narrowly specialised that they simply don't work unless they are played in a very narrowly and tightly-defined role?

we appear to have a group of players who have developed an unhealthy negative/flakey/unconfident team spirit - neither coyle or freedman has been able to break that... that's why i thought it was worth AT LEAST seeing what the new loanees could offer - untainted by that depressing Reebok-black-cloud - before writing them off as a desperate waste of money. sometimes that's as mysterious and simple as it is - some kind of intangible injection of confidence can totally transform a situation... sometimes a new manager can do that - maybe, to give dougie some credit - the injection of some eager and willing loanees will do that...

i don't think we have the luxury to retain players like N'gog - a striker who doesn't score, has an EXTREMELY narrow set of circumstances in which he can play and seems psychologically and physically quite fragile...

if narrow-misses now count - then you'd presumably now proclaim that Freedman did a solid job narrowly missing the playoffs!


BTW - what CAN N'gog do? and why do you think he is worth keeping as well as Moritz and mavis?

[Prufrock]

N'Gog isn't an anything. Most of his football for Liverpool was as a direct replacement for Torres as a 1 up-top. The idea that he's a number 10 is based on about three games last year.

The idea that he's shit is based on his entire time here.

[StaffsTrotter]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

well - truth is - I don't think there is a binary choice - EITHER it's the players who are crap - OR - it's the manager who is crap. sometimes there is an unfortunate combination of both. freedman isn't perfect - i have been quite balanced (I think) in criticising him - not idolising him, but also not yelling hysterically for his head every ten minutes... life is surely not always a simple choice of two extremes +1
I'm not sure the players are POOR - too much hyperbole floats around about players being utterly crap - but quite often (I think) players can be flakey and easily unsettled by systems or formations or tactics they have convinced themselves they are not capable of performing in.. when was it that players became so narrowly specialised that they simply don't work unless they are played in a very narrowly and tightly-defined role? not sure about that one. Many players will clearly have a favoured or more effective position. Thats not to say a manager won't spot something and move a player successfully to a 'new' position. Most players will play anywhere to stay in the team. The danger is when a manager 'likes' a player and asks him to play in a position the player is neither comfortable nor effective in.we appear to have a group of players who have developed an unhealthy negative/flakey/unconfident team spirit - neither coyle or freedman has been able to break that... that's why i thought it was worth AT LEAST seeing what the new loanees could offer - untainted by that depressing Reebok-black-cloud - before writing them off as a desperate waste of money. sometimes that's as mysterious and simple as it is - some kind of intangible injection of confidence can totally transform a situation... sometimes a new manager can do that - maybe, to give dougie some credit - the injection of some eager and willing loanees will do that... agree with the intangible/ luck point. The bit I don't get is how come this change hasn't materialised from all the signings that have been made ?i don't think we have the luxury to retain players like N'gog - a striker who doesn't score, has an EXTREMELY narrow set of circumstances in which he can play and seems psychologically and physically quite fragile... I don't think Ngog is as limited as you say. I'd say he is better than Beckford in the lone role, given he's actually quite good at getting the ball down and bringing other people in. Having said that I'm not sure why we only have to play 1 upfront. I bet if you talked to any forward they'd prefer to work in a pair. What lets him down is his killer instinct - he simply doesn't have that attitude (reminds me of Pedersen who I always thought was a forward who didn't look like he knew how to score)

if narrow-misses now count - then you'd presumably now proclaim that Freedman did a solid job narrowly missing the playoffs!


BTW - what CAN N'gog do? and why do you think he is worth keeping as well as Moritz and mavis?

who knows what Moritz can do ? Hasn't Mavies BWFC career been a lot like Ngogs -lots of ability, occasional matches of brilliance but lots of anonymity , lots on injuries ?

[chester white]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

I'm sorry to pick on another of your posts Smokin, but what exactly does the bit in bold mean!?

[StaffsTrotter]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

I'm sorry to pick on another of your posts Smokin, but what exactly does the bit in bold mean!?

bish = players not prem quality
sf = only just relegated so either - coyle great manager getting max out of those crap players OR players great for nearly staying in Prem despite crapness of Coyle

[thebish]

not sure about that one. Many players will clearly have a favoured or more effective position. Thats not to say a manager won't spot something and move a player successfully to a 'new' position. Most players will play anywhere to stay in the team. The danger is when a manager 'likes' a player and asks him to play in a position the player is neither comfortable nor effective in.

my point was really about N'gog - we are told he is a striker - but not one that scores goals (not his job or his preferred role) or holds up the ball (not his job or his preferred role) or head the ball (not his job or his preferred role), doesn't like it out wide (not his job or his preferred role) and isn't a tackler (not his job or his preferred role) or a tracker-back (not his job or his preferred role)

the circumstances in which we are told we might see his strengths and have him contribute something SEEM to be very narrow indeed... so narrow as I am struggling to see what those circumstances actually are and what his role actually is...

[jaffka]

Might be that he saves money on the screen print for his name on the shirt as he only has a few digits.

[Prufrock]

IMO the players were good enough to stay up but they were badly managed. There's a pretty big assumption going on here that we still have those players. 11 left that summer!

Coyle may have thought the team left was good enough to go up (as did I at the time) but it seems pretty obvious from the last 15 months that it wasn't. That's not the same as saying we should be where we are. I think this is comfortably a top-8 squad. I'm still ocnfident we'll finihs up around that area. Our second quarter of games has a lot more teams you'd expect to struggle in it, and a good run now would have us back in contention for the second half of the season.

[bwfcdan94]

Almost all the players who Freedman didn't sign have Premier League experience, and it's not like they disgraced themselves at that level either.

..... apart from getting us relegated - then plummeting us to the bottom of the championship...

If the players weren't good enough for he Premier League, then Coyle, at the very least, did a solid job given that we narrowly missed out on staying up. If that's the case, I presume you were against the sacking of Coyle and think he should have been given more time? If you think that Coyle did a poor job, then the players can't have been too bad, seeing as they almost stayed up despite Coyle's poor management. It can't have been both the manager and the players who were poor either, otherwise we would have done dreadfully like Wolves or Blackburn. One more win and we'd have finished above Villa.

If I was to guess, I'd say that Coyle's poor management cost us at least 10 points. If we had a manager like Allardyce or someone like that, we'd have finished from 10th to 15th, I think.

I'm sorry to pick on another of your posts Smokin, but what exactly does the bit in bold mean!?

bish = players not prem quality
sf = only just relegated so either - coyle great manager getting max out of those crap players OR players great for nearly staying in Prem despite crapness of Coyle

Thank you Staffs, maybe you should do roundups on what everyone says.

[Worthy4England]

Just been reading Nixon's tweets. According to him we are planning a clear out in January or the summer depending upon when we can get rid of players.

Eagles, NGog and Knight out of contract in the summer. Won't be kept. Flogged in January if possible.
Chungy, Wheater and Mears also players Dougie is trying to move on over the next window or two.

Big changes.

I don't believe anything that that knobber comes out with. Flog Knight? As in 'sell'?

Then again, if it was flog, as in "flog", it might hold some appeal...

[Hoboh]

Just been reading Nixon's tweets. According to him we are planning a clear out in January or the summer depending upon when we can get rid of players.

Eagles, NGog and Knight out of contract in the summer. Won't be kept. Flogged in January if possible.
Chungy, Wheater and Mears also players Dougie is trying to move on over the next window or two.

Big changes.

If that happens, it'll be disastrous for the club. We need to keep the quality we have, not get rid of them and replace them with mediocre players because they have the 'right attitude'. If this plan comes to fruition, and I hope it doesn't, it's an awful sign of the clubs lack of ambition. These rumours stink of Freedman wanting to ship out the players who have no faith in his managerial ability, and their poor performances back up that idea.

Whoa, Whoa, hang on SF my criticism of Freedman was he was not enough of the fire and Brimstone and the players were getting away with being too dammed sloppy.
If he has decided finally to nail his colours to the mast and obtain certain types of players in that will scrap and fight for the team all well and good.
This is not a division for Messi’s or Ronaldo’s, If we got promotion to the Premier league that’s when we really need to find the 5-10% extra that effort, application, and teamwork fall short of.

[thebish]

Just been reading Nixon's tweets. According to him we are planning a clear out in January or the summer depending upon when we can get rid of players.

Eagles, NGog and Knight out of contract in the summer. Won't be kept. Flogged in January if possible.
Chungy, Wheater and Mears also players Dougie is trying to move on over the next window or two.

Big changes.

I don't believe anything that that knobber comes out with. Flog Knight? As in 'sell'?

Then again, if it was flog, as in "flog", it might hold some appeal...

could we N'flog N'gog while we're at it?

[officer_dibble]

I dont know how anyone can get worked up about losing any of the overpaid underperformers at this club.

There isn't one player I would be gutted to lose in that squad. I'd be disappointed to lose eagles cos he works hard and generally has a decent goals/assists ratio, and mark davies as well as he is a talent. The rest of the ones on 'premier league' wages should be actively fecked off in my opinion. Maybe Ream will prove his worth on the basis of his performances this season (presumably his last year of contract).

Surprised that many posters are arsed about keeping the rest...Chungy would benefit from another club imo. Wayne routledge gets a game at swansea, sure chungy could doa job for a lower half premeir team. Needs better players round him.

[Sponge]

I dont know how anyone can get worked up about losing any of the overpaid underperformers at this club.

With you there.

[LeverEnd]

They've been shit for 2 managers and the sooner we get rid the better. We can't keep going with overpaid wankers cruising along for a pay packet. I don't care whether they've got England caps or once showed 'Premier quality'. They're dragging the place down, ship them out and then hose down the dressing room to rid it of the stench of failure.

[Worthy4England]

I am a little surprised to see Eagles on the list. Yes he can drift in and out of games some, but still a bit of a surprise when compared with the other names on "the list"

[TANGODANCER]

They've been shit for 2 managers and the sooner we get rid the better. We can't keep going with overpaid wankers cruising along for a pay packet. I don't care whether they've got England caps or once showed 'Premier quality'. They're dragging the place down, ship them out and then hose down the dressing room to rid it of the stench of failure.

There's much talk of overpaid, underperformers. All footballers are overpaid, so where do ours figure in the grand scheme of things, ie against other Championship teams? As things stand, the reality is, we're a Championship team, and not a very good one at that if we go by results. As a money club we just don't figure, so I can't imagine our players being paid any more than most. Yes, there will always be talk of underperforming while we don't win games, but we've done without the services of top/decent players for lengthy periods due to injuries. How long exactly have the likes of Sean Davies, Mears, Mark Davies, Chungy and Holden missed being available? Chungy, not yet back to the player he was, Holden and Mark Davies were our stars. Now Tierney joins the sicknoters. We talk about promotion, but how much of a reality has it been? We missed out on the play-offs last season, not promotion mind,, just the play-offs. There was no guarantee we'd have gone any further if we'd made them. This season we're at the lowest ebb we've been for a fair while. Both the manager and the players must be aware of how things are, and kicking both produces nothing.

Brum's manager last week claimed he wasn't blaming two of his players for letting us score. They commited no sins. There was nothing to blame them for. The defender got turned and left for pace once by Beckford who scored and the keeper misjudged a ball for our second. Neither offence was a sacking job, just real unlucky for them with the keeper, and Beckford doing his job for the first. I didn't see either player as failures, just another day at the office. When does everything ever go right all the time? Was Bogdan spilling the ball into our net last week failure, or just sheer bad luck? Careless maybe, but unintentional. Time to stop dreaming of our golden era, it's gone, and start finding ways to beat the Bournmouths, Doncasters and Yeovils down here in reality land. Start doing that and we can go from there.