General Chit Chat

[Bijou Bob]

That's my point Bruce, he refers to Gunga Din as his servant or slave. Would you refer to a black employee as Kunta Kinte or George? You've shown the guy considerable disrespect. It seems someone in your office also thinks the same. Nice welcome to your office and company for the guy.

[thebish]

I think I know Bruce well enough to be confident that he is not a racist - so I very much doubt there was racist intention - in fact, I'd be staggered if there was... so maybe that passes Bobo's test...

however - and apologies if this sounds harsh - but I do think you (bruce) have been a bit stoopid/ignorant/rude..

calling this bloke Gunga Din is summat I would have expected from Alf Garnett or Jim Davidson - really...

I'm with Bijou on the obvious alternative - SURELY it is better to ask someone what their actual name is than to fall back on a racially stereotyped alternative - especially one with the imperialist/racist overtones/undertones that Kipling invented?

I mean - surely in a formal workplace situation you would not call a black lad "kunta kinte" an irish bloke "paddy" or an Egyptian bloke "Mr Opodopoulos" or a turkish lad "Abdul" in preference to simply asking them their real name? to so is at the very least, rude...

[bobo the clown]

I think I know Bruce well enough to be confident that he is not a racist - so I very much doubt there was racist intention - in fact, I'd be staggered if there was... so maybe that passes Bobo's test...

however - and apologies if this sounds harsh - but I do think you (bruce) have been a bit stoopid/ignorant/rude..

calling this bloke Gunga Din is summat I would have expected from Alf Garnett or Jim Davidson - really...

I'm with Bijou on the obvious alternative - SURELY it is better to ask someone what their actual name is than to fall back on a racially stereotyped alternative - especially one with the imperialist/racist overtones/undertones that Kipling invented?

I mean - surely in a formal workplace situation you would not call a black lad "kunta kinte" an irish bloke "paddy" or an Egyptian bloke "Mr Opodopoulos" or a turkish lad "Abdul" in preference to simply asking them their real name? to so is at the very least, rude...

Unthinking maybe ... but would it deserve dismissal ... which is what could, genuinely, happen in the 'public sector' ... & quite a bit of the private too.

[thebish]

^ sometimes unthinking behaviour DOES lead to that.. it's an imperfect world... if I were in charge (and that would be very scary!) - then, no - an isolated incident of stoopidity/rudeness would not lead to dismissal... a prolonged campaign of such behaviour with the regular denigration of colleagues in such a fashion would be a different matter.

as I have said - what we are dealing with here is the former and not the latter.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Just been told off (a bit). We have a student over from India at the moment and I couldn't remember his name so I called him Gunga Din. This, apparently, isn't particularly PC.

In 1956 when the MCC was touring the West Indies, Freddie Trueman (allegedly) at a state banquet turned to Sir Leary Constatntine and said: Pass the salt Gunga Din. This didn't go over too well even back then.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

To add an illuminating tale of how offence can be taken when none is actually given:... ten years or so ago, in my previous job, I got hauled before a committee comprising HR and my boss. Confused as to what I had done, I was then confronted with the charge of being racially insensitive towards the Turkish bloke who was one of our electrical contractors who were doing the wiring in our building. Apparently the HR lady had overheard some of the other contractors refer to the Turk as "The Hun". I said something like "and...?", and the HR lady then hit me with her best shot: "and I heard you, with my own ears, call him Attila". There were very red faces opposite me when I pointed out that that was his actual name, hence why his work mates nicknamed him The Hun.

[Gary the Enfield]

Witch hunt Bobo? Isn't it a straight up case of racist language?

As discussed last week, the law dictates that offence is based on that taken, not that intended. That permits poor word choice to result in careers ended and reputations shredded. Where there is no intent I'd class that as a witch hunt ... almost literally in relation to the way innocent people can be buried by over-zealous proto bigots.

Regrettably I've had to handle a few of these cases. I find it difficult not to take the intent as the real issue (in fact I can't).


You did ask.

How did the student react?

For the record I have met Bruce on a few occasions too and he is not a racist.

A mysogonist alcoholic perhaps, but no racist.

[thebish]

Whilst at a conference, my missus attended a social event one evening - a quiz - people were randomly assigned to tables. on her table was a black guy - and the marathon round was all about naming chocolate bars. He was remarkably good at this and they scored full marks for the round and won the quiz (most teams that have my missus in do very well in quizzes).

anyway - coming into the conference hall the next morning, surrounded by lots of people, my missus spots the black guy - she exclaims - "Hey, Mr chocolate!"... then realises her faux pas as the faces of people around her show utter astonishment...

[Gooner Girl]

Just logged onto facebook and am stunned to see the passing of one of the mainstays of my gooner forum from some kind of illness/infection. I never met him but he was only in his 40's and whilst he drunk FAR too much and I suspect had a bit of a dodgy hooligan past, he was a nice bloke, adored his family and supported me through a tough time. Neither of us went on the forum so much these days but am still in a bit of shock. From what I can gather he donated organs to 2 other people which is fantastic. But still, far too young. His youngest daughter must only be about 5 or 6.

[Bruce Rioja]

I mean - surely in a formal workplace situation you would not call a black lad "kunta kinte" an irish bloke "paddy" or an Egyptian bloke "Mr Opodopoulos" or a turkish lad "Abdul" in preference to simply asking them their real name? to so is at the very least, rude...

Our Dispatch Manager is from Motherwell - he even appears on the telephone system as 'Jock'. There's only one person in the entire company that calls him William. Me! It was just a spare of the moment thing with no ill intent. If he called me 'Winston Churchill' I wouldn't be offended by it. Increasingly I find that people such as Bob and Brent social workers, choose to take offence on behalf of those that aren't offended at all. His name's Sentil, by the way, and he wasn't offended.

[Prufrock]

It's not a situation where it can only be racist or OK. It's the sort of thing I've had winced at if I'd overheard. It's at best rude. Just ask him his name! And for all this track of careers being ended, seems someone just had a quiet word. Seems

[Bruce Rioja]

Witch hunt Bobo? Isn't it a straight up case of racist language?

As discussed last week, the law dictates that offence is based on that taken, not that intended. That permits poor word choice to result in careers ended and reputations shredded. Where there is no intent I'd class that as a witch hunt ... almost literally in relation to the way innocent people can be buried by over-zealous proto bigots.

Regrettably I've had to handle a few of these cases. I find it difficult not to take the intent as the real issue (in fact I can't).


You did ask.

How did the student react?

For the record I have met Bruce on a few occasions too and he is not a racist.

A mysogonist alcoholic perhaps, but no racist.

Misogynist?

[thebish]

I mean - surely in a formal workplace situation you would not call a black lad "kunta kinte" an irish bloke "paddy" or an Egyptian bloke "Mr Opodopoulos" or a turkish lad "Abdul" in preference to simply asking them their real name? to so is at the very least, rude...

Our Dispatch Manager is from Motherwell - he even appears on the telephone system as 'Jock'. There's only one person in the entire company that calls him William. Me! It was just a spare of the moment thing with no ill intent. If he called me 'Winston Churchill' I wouldn't be offended by it. Increasingly I find that people such as Bob, you and Brent social workers, choose to take offence on behalf of those that aren't offended at all. His name's Sentil, by the way, and he wasn't offended.

i didn't say he was. i was merely expressing an opinion of how he very easily and justifiably could have been. nor did i accuse you of any ill-intent - I merely said it was rude (which it was)

calling your dispatch manager "jock" is a nickname - people presumably know him well. that is a different matter than NOT knowing someone's name and so substituting a race-based fictional name.

Sentil may well not have been offended - on the other hand - he's hardly in a strong position to say so (being a student and a new boy where you are an older white male who has been there for donkey's years, I think you'd have to know someone fairly well to be sure they were not offended by such a thing.)

I'm not sure how Brent social workers are involved in this - maybe there's more you haven't told us?

[Gary the Enfield]

Witch hunt Bobo? Isn't it a straight up case of racist language?

As discussed last week, the law dictates that offence is based on that taken, not that intended. That permits poor word choice to result in careers ended and reputations shredded. Where there is no intent I'd class that as a witch hunt ... almost literally in relation to the way innocent people can be buried by over-zealous proto bigots.

Regrettably I've had to handle a few of these cases. I find it difficult not to take the intent as the real issue (in fact I can't).


You did ask.

How did the student react?

For the record I have met Bruce on a few occasions too and he is not a racist.

A mysogonist alcoholic perhaps, but no racist.

Misogynist?

A joke my friend. Designed to inject some levity. Unless you're correcting my spelling.

I notice you didn't question alcoholic!

[Il Pirate]

My surname is pretty common in the North West. I've even had pie shops named after me. However, on the IoW, it's amazing how so many people have difficulty pronoucing it. I was once at an outpatients appointment at hospital when a nurse came out and tried to say my name. Unfortunatley for her, she was stood next to a 'ward manager', (as I later found out). After about four attempts, I stood up and said 'that must be me'; 'I'm sorry, she said, I have trouble saying funny names'. We both smiled, no offence was meant and none was taken.
Following my appointment, I was asked into another room. The 'manager' and her senior were present, the nurse conspiscously missing. The pair of them were falling over themselves to apologise for the nurse being unable to say my name correctly. I was feckin' stunned. I muttered something about the nurse having far more important things to do than say names correctly, and working in public service myself, was aware of how mistakes can be easily misconstrued, but I wasn't in the slightest bit offended. ...........And people wonder why parts of the NHS are failing...

[Bruce Rioja]

I notice you didn't question alcoholic!

Yiss. That was my little joke right back attcha. Today doesn't appear to be starting very well.

[Gary the Enfield]

I notice you didn't question alcoholic!

Yiss. That was my little joke right back attcha. Today doesn't appear to be starting very well.

Have you sent that Gin off yet? You may want to retain a bottle.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I notice you didn't question alcoholic!

Yiss. That was my little joke right back attcha. Today doesn't appear to be starting very well.

I note that you failed to win the Caption Competition too...
it's discrimination mate

[Bruce Rioja]

Have you sent that Gin off yet? You may want to retain a bottle.

Just turned up now - freezing cold (rather efficient those Ocado people - first time I've used them).

[Lost Leopard Spot]

You're giving him a Bolton Wanderers mug? He's Scandinavian, it'll be a waste.