Nelson Mandela RIP

[Harry Genshaw]

Never have I been so glad to be out of the country. I made the mistake of turning on the tv in my hotel room and tuning in to BBC Jewish/Israeli news, sorry BBC News 24, only to find that there are apparently no news worthy items other than the death of an elderly statesman.

I check BBC sports page for the Ashes update to find the leading article is "Nelson Mandela - his influence on sport".

Feck me sideways.

This again.
I'm utterly aghast, especially on this thread and the way it's going, that nobody else seems to think this post is Pricksville...

Are you upset about the allegation of a bias BBC news service, or the lack of reverence for Mr M? If it's the latter then fair enough, but if its the former - isn't Bob (in a rather cack handed way to be fair) highlighting what many allege anyway?

[Lord Kangana]

The BBC (perhaps, more pertinently, the media in general) is most certainly guilty of showing bias toward Israel. I think the cack-handed nature of the comments was more the issue (wasn't it? It was for me, anyway.)

[Harry Genshaw]

Ah right. Fair enough - as you were

[Montreal Wanderer]

The BBC (perhaps, more pertinently, the media in general) is most certainly guilty of showing bias toward Israel. I think the cack-handed nature of the comments was more the issue (wasn't it? It was for me, anyway.)

I have no idea about BBC's biases, but I feel it is wrong to write "Jewish/Israeli" as if the terms were synonymous. Many Jews do not approve of the actions of the Israeli government, especially with regard to Gaza and the West Bank. LK is probably correct about the media in general regarding Israeli - it is a democracy, follows the rule of law and is in fact a Western-type state in a middle eastern sea of countries we do not really understand so the bias is not surprising. I do get the BBC World News btw and did not perceive it to be particularly pro-Israeli, but I don't watch all the time.

[thebish]

"our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians." Nelson Mandela

[Prufrock]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can draw a moral equivalence between the actions of oppressors and oppressed.

There's an horrific film from from The Second World War of Germans throwing rotten potatoes and stale bread into a mass crowd of (starving) Russian POW'S. There is clearly not enough to feed the hundreds, so naturally, they fight violently over the scraps (it was, after all, intended German State policy to starve many of them to death). Are we to conclude, from the evidence presented, that the Russians were indeed subhuman animals who would kill each other for bread (as the Nazi's publicly proclaimed) or being driven to such behaviour by the inhuman-ness of their treatment? There are two sides to every story, it doesn't make them of either equal credence or worth mentioning.

Who is drawing moral equivalence? I've not seen anyone yet say Mandela or the MK were as bad as the state. Still, even if you personally think such tactics are in this case justified, you must be able to see how people would have trouble with the killing of innocents being justified by the killing of other innocents? You don't have to think it worse to think that it might be bad.

To get away from supermarkets after Will's post, I know Mandela didn't dispute that he knew about/was involved in the planning of things like the strategic targeting of power stations, where he knew innocent people may die. I found it really interesting to read how he felt it was justified, how it was the only way, but he certainly wasn't sure. There's a hesitancy in what he writes. Even if you think it was justified, you have to acknowledge it's a grey area, and people are entitled to think otherwise, surely?!

I compared it to Dresden and the Belgrano earlier, and I think Dresden in particular is a good comparison. As a general rule, it's the liberal left that most reveres Mandela, and the liberal left whence criticisms of Dresden come. I'm not saying that position can't be reconciled, but I think both exist in a grey area morally and am surprised when people are confident enough to have entrenched positions on them!

And he was anxious to avoid these deaths. And there were no deaths from MK activity throughout the 1960s. It's a very long stretch to pin responsibility on Mandela for supermarket bombings at a time when he had been imprisoned for over twenty years and, thus, not in any sense in operational command of MK. And when MK itself does not claim responsibility for these.

However, the world is in mourning including people of all races and communities in South Africa. A great man has passed. RIP.

At the time I read his letters I thought killing violent resistance putting the lives of civilians at risk was never justified. I'm not sure I've changed my mind, but it was really interesting to read what went on in the mind of someone who felt so desperate that there was no other way. I can't imagine what it must be like to feel so helpless that you would be willing to risk killing innocent people, even with as many safeguards as you can, even to take that risk because you felt it was all you could do. Are we so sure that there was no other way that we can say its fine, it was completely justified to do that? I don't think so. Reading those letters there was no sense of self-justification, just an explanation that every choice was a bad choice, and he felt he they had no other option. We don't have to remember him as a perfect man to remember him as a great man. RIP indeed.

[Bijou Bob]

The BBC (perhaps, more pertinently, the media in general) is most certainly guilty of showing bias toward Israel. I think the cack-handed nature of the comments was more the issue (wasn't it? It was for me, anyway.)

I have no idea about BBC's biases, but I feel it is wrong to write "Jewish/Israeli" as if the terms were synonymous. Many Jews do not approve of the actions of the Israeli government, especially with regard to Gaza and the West Bank. LK is probably correct about the media in general regarding Israeli - it is a democracy, follows the rule of law and is in fact a Western-type state in a middle eastern sea of countries we do not really understand so the bias is not surprising. I do get the BBC World News btw and did not perceive it to be particularly pro-Israeli, but I don't watch all the time.

I did not mean for the two to be taken as synonymous and I am certainly aware that they are anything but.

My point was twofold: 1. That the coverage of the death of a statesman, albeit someone of NM's status, has reached almost epic (Perhaps even Diana-esque) proportions, even in the sports pages and whilst doing so that 2. BBC News 24 have a well acknowledged love of (and possible editorial bias towards) Jewish issues and those surrounding the Israeli state. I'm not sure that warrants the term 'Pricksville', it's just an expression of my experience.

[William the White]

The BBC (perhaps, more pertinently, the media in general) is most certainly guilty of showing bias toward Israel. I think the cack-handed nature of the comments was more the issue (wasn't it? It was for me, anyway.)

I have no idea about BBC's biases, but I feel it is wrong to write "Jewish/Israeli" as if the terms were synonymous. Many Jews do not approve of the actions of the Israeli government, especially with regard to Gaza and the West Bank. LK is probably correct about the media in general regarding Israeli - it is a democracy, follows the rule of law and is in fact a Western-type state in a middle eastern sea of countries we do not really understand so the bias is not surprising. I do get the BBC World News btw and did not perceive it to be particularly pro-Israeli, but I don't watch all the time.

Amnesty International on the plight of Palestinians in 2013.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel ... eport-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A fine advertisement for 'democracy'. (As, of course, is Guantanamo).

[Montreal Wanderer]

The BBC (perhaps, more pertinently, the media in general) is most certainly guilty of showing bias toward Israel. I think the cack-handed nature of the comments was more the issue (wasn't it? It was for me, anyway.)

I have no idea about BBC's biases, but I feel it is wrong to write "Jewish/Israeli" as if the terms were synonymous. Many Jews do not approve of the actions of the Israeli government, especially with regard to Gaza and the West Bank. LK is probably correct about the media in general regarding Israeli - it is a democracy, follows the rule of law and is in fact a Western-type state in a middle eastern sea of countries we do not really understand so the bias is not surprising. I do get the BBC World News btw and did not perceive it to be particularly pro-Israeli, but I don't watch all the time.

Amnesty International on the plight of Palestinians in 2013.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel ... eport-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A fine advertisement for 'democracy'. (As, of course, is Guantanamo).

William, I am well aware of the things that Israel does, nor am I a supporter of that state (any more than I think Syria - or put in another country from the region - is worthy of my support). When I use the word democracy I refer to a free franchise to elect leaders. Can Hamas claim the same? And for my money Hamas bears as much responsibility as people like Netanyahu for the mess in Palestine that AI decries. I did not say democracy was in some sense always good - merely that Israel is a democracy (however much that upsets you) and this is one reason western media favours them. That is all.

[Bijou Bob]

Looking at the footage of dozens of film crews in the townships surounded by security personnel, I'm almost minded to ask what Mandela's legacy is, particularly in respect of his own people? People of colour in South Africa may well now be free to enjoy a new and democratic state, but if twenty odd years after the removal of apartheid, the majority continue to enjoy it in poverty, has Mandela overseen real change?

[boltonboris]

Well he's given them a voice. It's up to the people to use it.

[Gravedigger]

Don't forget Mandela's transgressions were conducted in the 50s and 60s and time tends to cloud the truths of the day. Same as the "Sharpesville Massacre" was in 1960 and little or no mention has been made of it. Perhaps a twist of fate stopped South Africa becoming another Zimbabwe. He was without doubt a terrorist in the eyes of the West and as head of a terrorist organisation responsible for the bombings of more than a few civilian targets . His release and subsequent rise to presidency was welcomed as it avoided civil war. Now he's gone and the future will dictate South Africa's destiny.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

"our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians." Nelson Mandela

I wonder what Robert Mugabe would say. I'm always interested in what some fecking statesman celeb's got to say. Thank Christ Bijou Bob & Willy the White aren't statesmen.

[bobo the clown]

Anyway ..... piss poor turn-out to be honest.


... and Obama is in soooo much trouble for flirting with the, rather attractive, Danish bint. Though as she's married to Neil Kinnock's son I can imagine she wants a bit of attention.

[Annoyed Grunt]

Anyway ..... piss poor turn-out to be honest.


... and Obama is in soooo much trouble for flirting with the, rather attractive, Danish bint. Though as she's married to Neil Kinnock's son I can imagine she wants a bit of attention.

https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/410450353511862272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michelle looks non too pleased.....

[Relentless09]

As with nearly everything, Mandela's death has risen a debate in Northern Ireland. The links between the ANC and IRA along with the general support between Mandela and Sinn Fein is generally known. Some posters on here seem to sympathise with the ANC violence against the state even though innocent people where caught up in it. Is the same case with the IRA against the British State ? Some argue it was just to fight against an oppressive state but was the bombing of town centres and shops just ?

Apologises in advance but the topic of 'terrorism' or however you see it, really angers me. The death of innocent civilians due to reckless actions in the name of freedom is just a no go area. Targeting publicly used services is cowardly.

[Bruce Rioja]

As with nearly everything, Mandela's death has risen a debate in Northern Ireland.

Not long after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement I drove through Mallusk. On one side of the road they were flying the flag of Palestine, on the other the Star of David.

[Relentless09]

As with nearly everything, Mandela's death has risen a debate in Northern Ireland.

Not long after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement I drove through Mallusk. On one side of the road they were flying the flag of Palestine, on the other the Star of David.

Multicultural society...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Anyway ..... piss poor turn-out to be honest.


... and Obama is in soooo much trouble for flirting with the, rather attractive, Danish bint. Though as she's married to Neil Kinnock's son I can imagine she wants a bit of attention.

https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/410450353511862272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michelle looks non too pleased.....

There was an article doing the rounds recently on the depressing spectacle of funeral selfies. I have to say I didn't expect Obama and Cameron to be the next ones... tw*ts.

[boltonboris]

What the feck were Cameron, the Danish bird and Obama doing taking a 'selfie' at a feckin funeral? Absolute weapons..