Freedman out!

[thebish]

Except that squad IS decent.

Todays 18 are -

Lonergan - Baptiste Knight Mills Ream - Pratley Spearing Davies - Lee Eagles Mason

Ngog Beckford Moritz Vela White Lee-Barrett Medo-Kamara

... & that's without Tierney & the ever-absent Holden, as well as Danns & McNaughton

The players are
a). uninspired
b). ill led
c). confused by his 'tactics'

I maybe wrong, as I've been called a stupid c8nt many times previously; but I'm of the opinion a good 8 of our 'first' team squad would walk into any current championship first eleven.

really???

[truewhite15]

Except that squad IS decent.

Todays 18 are -

Lonergan - Baptiste Knight Mills Ream - Pratley Spearing Davies - Lee Eagles Mason

Ngog Beckford Moritz Vela White Lee-Barrett Medo-Kamara

... & that's without Tierney & the ever-absent Holden, as well as Danns & McNaughton

The players are
a). uninspired
b). ill led
c). confused by his 'tactics'

I maybe wrong, as I've been called a stupid c8nt many times previously; but I'm of the opinion a good 8 of our 'first' team squad would walk into any current championship first eleven. A further 3, if not 5 of our 'reserves' would also be included in championship squads. This begs the question, are most of, apart from the odd 4 or 5 championship squads, better than ours? I think resoundingly they are not. So why are we in the fecking position we are in!? The conclusion I come to is that our current manager is out of his depth. Sack the f*cker now. Please.........................

Nah, there's only so far you can go with the whole "the players are underperforming because of the manager" argument. This group of players has now been naff for two years, some of them longer than that. That means that this level of performance isn't underperforming - it's just their level.

Yes, the manager isn't doing well, and there are probably people out there who could do a slightly better job. But the players we have just can't cut it either. They certainly aren't going to go walking into top of the table clubs.

[norm the jedi]

Except that squad IS decent.

Todays 18 are -

Lonergan - Baptiste Knight Mills Ream - Pratley Spearing Davies - Lee Eagles Mason

Ngog Beckford Moritz Vela White Lee-Barrett Medo-Kamara

... & that's without Tierney & the ever-absent Holden, as well as Danns & McNaughton

The players are
a). uninspired
b). ill led
c). confused by his 'tactics'

Decent... . ? Not being obtuse but I have no idea what decent actually means..
If it is championship quality decent then probably on average they are decent , the midfielders are possibly above average and could attract interest from others at this level..
our back four are something less than the sum of their parts.. With a club captain who most would have run out of town on a rail 18 months ago, an American who has been variously described as lightweight , out of his depth, American, rubbish and not up to it, enter a leicester reject variously, slow, lumbering, pedestrian , not worth the money..
Add in Baptiste who until this afternoon was apparently wearing the goat of scape cosies... And Wheater ... Likely to be the saviour until it became apparent that he had actually lost a yard from his glacial best and added a couple of minutes to his turning circle. Reads the game like he is translating it from Aramaic and has now apparently disappeared.. I don't imagine the phone is not with enquiries for these chaps..
Up front we have a loanee with one goal in eight starts. And that courtesy of a deflection visible from space it was so large... Beckford who scores in bunches then doesn't whilst possessing the admirable qualities of, no intelligence, little effort, no touch, no passing ability, no heart and no application.. But he is quite quick in a straight line and can finish when his confidence is up... So someone in a similar position to us or lower may take a punt...

So the midfield contains saleable assets, who can play and one or two who could help out a struggling prem team or a championship promotion hopeful.
Lonergan is a decent goalie Ao at a stretch he'd fit into that group..

I don't see any of the others defenders or attackers getting into the borderline prem/championship group..

We are where we are ...

Our best performers, during Freedmans time, the difference makers if you will? Have been loaned in and given back ...
I never thought we could compete with the back four options and I still don't..

These aren't decent players poor coached their record under various coaches suggests they are ordinary, mediocre, workaday chaps.
Uninspired ? Cry Harry and let slip?
I'll led ? Who leads, manager, chairman geezer who's money it is?
Confused? They've been playing football since they were 5 - they should have the feck hang of it by now... Tactics, formations ... The silver bullet 4-5 whatever .... Get to feck.. 11 v 11 if more of our 11 beat more of theirs we win... That takes heart and effort and guts.. And that's. Down to individuals it can be harnessed by a manager but he can't create it out of sod all, Ivan Campo wanted win because he was a winner not because Allerdyce told him...

Freedman seems to have an eye for a player who can make us better, we don't buy them though... And with 160mill on the overdraft I doubt we will...
That's the issue not whether the manager can give a rousing team talk...
You'll win feck all with decent ... Even less with mediocre... Or half decent..

[newcarsmell]

TBF.. 9 of the starting 11 today were Coyle / Megson signings ...

... progress ?

[BWFC_Insane]

Just a thought, our second most expensive signing at the club right now is currently 'underperforming' on loan at another club under another manager.

That is of course if he is underperforming at all and not just a bit shit.

We seem to have a lot of players who are supposed to be good but have never really proven themselves over a significant period of time at this level let alone the one above.

[LeverEnd]

Just a thought, our second most expensive signing at the club right now is currently 'underperforming' on loan at another club under another manager.

That is of course if he is underperforming at all and not just a bit shit.

We seem to have a lot of players who are supposed to be good but have never really proven themselves over a significant period of time at this level let alone the one above.

That's because he IS shit. DF didn't sign him and I don't blame him at all for Sordell. I do blame him for bringing other players in, waxing lyrical about them, seeing them get worse and then bringing in loans to cover his feck ups.

[Lord Kangana]

Hang on, why sack any manager ever then?

May I remind those who would wish to overlook it, he's in his 15th month in this job. Thats nearly half the time Coyle was here, over half the time that Megson was here, and over double the time Sammy Lee was here. He's not new anymore. He's not even close. We're below the position we were in when he arrived. This squad finished 7th last season. He's added to it, with some quite expensive signings at this level. Lets cut the crap. The squad are capable of far better than this. They achieved it last bloody season, not when we were in Europe with Big Sam in charge.

[SmokinFrazier]

Nah, there's only so far you can go with the whole "the players are underperforming because of the manager" argument. This group of players has now been naff for two years, some of them longer than that. That means that this level of performance isn't underperforming - it's just their level.

Yes, the manager isn't doing well, and there are probably people out there who could do a slightly better job. But the players we have just can't cut it either. They certainly aren't going to go walking into top of the table clubs.

The players are fine for this league. Of the team who played today, only Lonergan, Moritz, Mason and Mills lack experience in the Premier League and when they were playing there, none of them disgraced themselves. Eagles, Davies, N'Gog, Wheater, Ream, Knight, Chungy and Pratley were all part of an side which almost escaped relegation on the last day, so if these players are genuinely middle table Championship quality, then how did Owen Coyle, someone who has been called tactically inept for months by our fans, get them to do so well against better opposition? We also have Spearing, Baptiste and Beckford who played in the Premier League and, again, it's not like these players were embarrassing themselves week in, week out.

Either the Championship is better than the Premier League, all these players have had a massive drop in form (which I think is only appropriate for Knight), Coyle was a miracle worker or the players are fine and it's the manager who is failing them. Personally, I think there's undoubtedly a lack of confidence but the biggest issue for me can be pinned on the manager, who has got things wrong constantly. Last season, I constantly said we should play 4-4-2, a formation which worked far better for us, and yet Freedman didn't realise that until late on in the season and then when it had worked well for us, he switched in the last few games and cost us points which would have meant we finished in the play offs. Why? And this season, we have conceded so many goals from just outside the box because our defenders don't close their strikers down quickly enough, yet Freedman has done nothing about that, so we continue to let too many in. When we play attacking football, we show our real quality yet Freedman insists on doing that when it's too late for us, which is why we play our best football when we're already down and need a goal. Why not just attack sides from the start, rather than defending, going a goal down and then switching to a style which suits us far more in order to drag us back into it? These aren't the only mistakes he's made either.

He's just a very poor manager, in my opinion, and I think his record proves that. He's made far too many mistakes with us and should have paid for them a long time ago.

[bobo the clown]

Except that squad IS decent.

Todays 18 are -

Lonergan - Baptiste Knight Mills Ream - Pratley Spearing Davies - Lee Eagles Mason

Ngog Beckford Moritz Vela White Lee-Barrett Medo-Kamara

... & that's without Tierney & the ever-absent Holden, as well as Danns & McNaughton

The players are
a). uninspired
b). ill led
c). confused by his 'tactics'

Decent... . ? Not being obtuse but I have no idea what decent actually means..........

Well, you see Norm, by 'decent' I mean players who are ... at the level they are playing ... at, or above, the norm. Experienced, capable players. Players I have a right to expect more of.

I don't see how that is difficult to comprehend.

Moreover, how it can be denied that last season's captain of Blackpool, Baptiste, doesn't fit that description.
Nor, however much we slag him off, Zat Knight with something like 300 Premiership appearances.
Nor last season's player of the season, Spearing.
I believe the same applies to CY Lee, even N'Gog. Mark Davies, surely fits that. Mills, even Wheater and the improved Ream. Eagles also and, in my view, Medo and Moritz fit that bill also ... as does Lonergan, though personally I'm less convinced about Bogdan.


If we were chucking in kids from the youth team, or playing players who are out of their depth I would be being unfair to expect more from them. They would not, at this stage, be viewed by me as 'decent' players at this level ... yet. Eaves is, in my view, an example of a player we own who is simply not coming up to the mark. Same with Sordell. They fit the description, "not decent players" from what we've seen.

So, my point is that these players are, collectively and over a sustained period, failing to perform to their capabilities. Either they've all hit a capability wall at the same time or they are being misled and mismanaged.

I believe a competent manager would have this bunch of players playing better than they are and getting better results than they are. If HE didn't think this then he needs to answer for why, this season alone, he's bigged up Eagles, N'Gog, Eaves, Medo, Moritz, Knight and then gone on to leave them out for sustained periods.

I know what my view is.

I also know what yours is ... I just disagree.

[BWFC_Insane]

Hang on, why sack any manager ever then?

This is a fairly unique situation though. We've just cut the wage bill by £37M in the last financial year. And suffered a loss of £50M.

That is all against the backdrop of being penalised next year for a loss of anything greater than £8M with either a financial penalty or a transfer ban. So in effect we must reduce our annual loss by ~£42M.

So all in all spending £2.5M to get rid of the manager and bring in another seems relatively trivial weighed up against that (and counter-productive to avoiding penalty), especially as it is clear that the clubs priorities lie now in a long term plan (and god help them with whatever that is).

[coffeymagic]

He's giving the boo boys the bullets to fire isn't he? Throwing N'Gog on at the death isn't a 'tactic' it's just another frantic sign of desperation.

From what I could gather it sounded like a good game but yet again we're relying on Dougie time to salvage a single point at home. Luckily it paid off yesterday, as it has had to do sevral times already this year but two home wins speaks for itself.

He's oilier than a cormorant in a BP oil slick (watch that phrase catch on) and seems to be able to wriggle his way out of anything. I don't want him sacked I want him to get it right.

Can he?

[norm the jedi]

Decent... . ? Not being obtuse but I have no idea what decent actually means..........

Well, you see Norm, by 'decent' I mean players who are ... at the level they are playing ... at, or above, the norm. Experienced, capable players. Players I have a right to expect more of.

I don't see how that is difficult to comprehend.

No it isn't difficult to comprehend being as you have now explained what you were on about in very nearly a paragraph as opposed to 'Decent' which is one word and somewhat subjective..
My West ham cocker nee geezer pal considers 'decent' high praise. I have always thought it meant , ok.... But nothing to write home about...
Sort of fair enough... Your definition is not that far off mine... That said, like nice I think it covers a multitude of sins and is not exactly exultant... And difficult to nail down without context which I sought..

We disagree on the solution right enough but tbh we're not that far apart on the merits of the team,

They're none of em particularly good or bad but there's every reason to believe they could do a bit better than they are doing..... Well all except N'gog who has now made a career out of not living up to the hype .

I don't know what the difference between current and predicted performance should be.. I don't think we're troubling the prem... 10-12 league positions below their realistic level based on the last three seasons performances experience etc.. Borderline play offs..... As per last season..

Underperforming? Possibly currently But there's half a season to go ...

The manager might be a problem ? I think he is capable of working it out as he goes along... And I also think to some extent his hands are tied..
Dougie Freedman isn't the biggest problem by a long chalk.. And with our budget who replaces him? for all that we can talk about Malkie McKay or Steve Clark or Gerard Houlier on the inter web we'll be in line for Harry journeyman just setting out on his managerial career after a successful campaign as player coach at Nuneaton Borough.. Or someone with more experience, mostly of failure. Either way it's a punt

[CrazyHorse]

Hang on, why sack any manager ever then?

May I remind those who would wish to overlook it, he's in his 15th month in this job. Thats nearly half the time Coyle was here, over half the time that Megson was here, and over double the time Sammy Lee was here. He's not new anymore. He's not even close. We're below the position we were in when he arrived. This squad finished 7th last season. He's added to it, with some quite expensive signings at this level. Lets cut the crap. The squad are capable of far better than this. They achieved it last bloody season, not when we were in Europe with Big Sam in charge.

He's also half way through his contract. Around the time when we should be looking to offer him a new deal. Can anyone hand on heart say Freedman has done anything like enough to justify a contract extension?

[jaffka]

I can see the club letting his contract run out and then he just leaves. Very much like what happened with Stan Ternant at Burnley.

[StaffsTrotter]

dougie has shown very little if anything to justify his retention or give confidence that he can turn it around but the new reality is that we are stuck with him simply because of the finances of getting rid. The dilemma for the board would be if we went down this year.

as I've said before, hiring any manager, like buying any player is a gamble. we could hire ferguson and it might not work out, but the probabilities of it working out are higher thats all. The problem is everyone is so underwhelmed all the time - I'm sure we could hire most of the current premiership managers and be underwhelmed, albeit they can make a difference e.g. pulis at palace. The trick for a manager is sustaining it.

Its often said it all boils down to results and I'd like to think that I'm not quite as one eyed as that, but at the moment we've neither the results not much in the way of organisation, performance, team selection etc etc to hang on to believe we will soon turn a corner

[thebish]

He's giving the boo boys the bullets to fire isn't he? Throwing N'Gog on at the death isn't a 'tactic' it's just another frantic sign of desperation.

Ngog did score the equaliser, though!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

There's a problem with Allardyce, the same one that he left over: money. Then it was that we wouldn't give him enough to spend; now, in addition to that, it also seems he's rather well remunerated himself...
http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/19/west-ham- ... e-4237759/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TBF.. 9 of the starting 11 today were Coyle / Megson signings ...

... progress ?

Haven't checked the number but I was noting that a lot of the names were old. If determined to defend Dougie you could argue that, say, Spearing is better than Kamara (or Mark Davies better than Moritz) because they cost more. I'm somewhat past caring now, but I do think that for whatever reason Freedman's signings aren't playing as well as he hoped, and while we wait to see what we can beg steal or borrow this month he's ended up falling back on his inherited players. (Or maybe there's no agenda, just that after the Christmas fixtures the others weren't passing the bleep tests.)

We seem to have a lot of players who are supposed to be good but have never really proven themselves over a significant period of time at this level let alone the one above.

Promises unkept. I was pleased by the signings of (random sprinkle) Sordell, Medo, Spearing, Mason, Andrews, Eagles, Ngog, etc but they're all erratic at best. I have absolutely no doubt that the manager should be getting more out of them more often but to me it's misguided to say we have a good squad, because some of them have frequently been poor under two or even three managers.

We're below the position we were in when he arrived. This squad finished 7th last season. He's added to it, with some quite expensive signings at this level. Lets cut the crap. The squad are capable of far better than this. They achieved it last bloody season, not when we were in Europe with Big Sam in charge.

All true.
But the major difference in that squad was Dawson. This is not "if Andranik were playing" wishful thinking, it's fairly obvious from the stats: our win record last season with Dawson was 63%, without him it was 29%. It's also fairly obvious with hindsight that lots of those narrow wins with Dawson were crack-papering. Fine margins, as a predecessor said. If only we could find another Dawson.

I don't want him sacked I want him to get it right. Can he?

Pretty much where I am, hope and question.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think as well as Dawson and co last season there was still a little hope around the club and about the place in general. I suspect the tentacles of debt and austerity has really spread this season affecting many areas. I'm not sure it is a happy place in general and I certainly know it isn't in a couple of non-footballing areas.

That isn't an excuse like you still have to get the best out of players and get them performing. But again I don't feel the squad has enough characters of the "right stuff" in it. We signed Spearing for that sort of thing but he is still an untested boy, and how he reacts to adversity is an unknown.

There is no momemtum at the football club as a whole coming from the top, no togetherness and no real joy from what I can tell. And this has spread through all areas. I think it is a hard backdrop to manage against especially when £37M of resources walked out in the time you were there and you and everyone else knows that another ~£40M load of resource will be going as soon as is possible.

[Lord Kangana]

That wasn't true at the start of the season. We signed some expensive and experienced players for this level. Other clubs couldn't afford Batiste's wage demands for example. We gave a new contract to one of our centre halves, one who has been lumped into the " really expensive hangover from the previous regime". I don't believe for one second he took a 50% wage cut.We may be spending less than we have, but that's been a trend for a few seasons. We started off at a much, much loftier position than we are now.

So yes, it does rather sound like excuse making. Because at the start of the season there was optimism, the recent financial results hadn't been published, we signed some decent players, we'd just finished seventh. If one player was all the difference, then Dougie should have gone months ago, quite frankly. Smacks of Coyle and Holden. His one lucky signing, if I recall rightly.

[BWFC_Insane]

That wasn't true at the start of the season. We signed some expensive and experienced players for this level. Other clubs couldn't afford Batiste's wage demands for example. We gave a new contract to one of our centre halves, one who has been lumped into the " really expensive hangover from the previous regime". I don't believe for one second he took a 50% wage cut.We may be spending less than we have, but that's been a trend for a few seasons. We started off at a much, much loftier position than we are now.

So yes, it does rather sound like excuse making. Because at the start of the season there was optimism, the recent financial results hadn't been published, we signed some decent players, we'd just finished seventh. If one player was all the difference, then Dougie should have gone months ago, quite frankly. Smacks of Coyle and Holden. His one lucky signing, if I recall rightly.

Outwardly perhaps that was the case. But across the club people were going, cost cutting was happening in several areas before the summer and during it. I realise that we signed some players and weren't the paupers of the division in that sense. But, there hasn't been massive optimism or togetherness or a feeling of real excitement for the entirety of this season. That is down to more than the current footballing issues and part of a wider story. There may be a compelling argument now then, for an experienced set of hands in charge, who knows how to navigate through these times and keep players focussed and determined. I wouldn't argue against that, but for questioning who wants to manage us in these circumstances and whether it will make a big enough difference to offset the >2M cost of change. I have no idea on either count.