The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

Ministers appear to be stoking up fears about European Union migrants to distract voters from the real problems Britain faces, a top Brussels official has claimed.

Viviane Reding said it was "simply not true" that there was an "invasion of foreigners" who were stealing jobs and draining welfare and health resources.

The vice-president of the European commission, who has previously called for a "United States of Europe", claimed most of the information about the EU given to the UK public was based on myths and warned political leaders that adopting populist tactics to win votes was "destroying the future" of Britain.

The truth is out there!

And now Mandy (who knows best) Meddleson shows how democratic Socialists mindset works!

The debate kicked off this morning on BBC Radio 4 Today. Lord Mandelson, a former EU commissioner, said giving the public a vote would be a "lottery" and the outcome could be affected by factors other than Europe.

[Beefheart]

Ministers appear to be stoking up fears about European Union migrants to distract voters from the real problems Britain faces, a top Brussels official has claimed.

Viviane Reding said it was "simply not true" that there was an "invasion of foreigners" who were stealing jobs and draining welfare and health resources.

The vice-president of the European commission, who has previously called for a "United States of Europe", claimed most of the information about the EU given to the UK public was based on myths and warned political leaders that adopting populist tactics to win votes was "destroying the future" of Britain.

The truth is out there!

And now Mandy (who knows best) Meddleson shows how democratic Socialists mindset works!

The debate kicked off this morning on BBC Radio 4 Today. Lord Mandelson, a former EU commissioner, said giving the public a vote would be a "lottery" and the outcome could be affected by factors other than Europe.

So if saying that that part is truth, what do you make of the idea that this 'invasion of foreigners' is a myth?

[Hoboh]

Ministers appear to be stoking up fears about European Union migrants to distract voters from the real problems Britain faces, a top Brussels official has claimed.

Viviane Reding said it was "simply not true" that there was an "invasion of foreigners" who were stealing jobs and draining welfare and health resources.

The vice-president of the European commission, who has previously called for a "United States of Europe", claimed most of the information about the EU given to the UK public was based on myths and warned political leaders that adopting populist tactics to win votes was "destroying the future" of Britain.

The truth is out there!

And now Mandy (who knows best) Meddleson shows how democratic Socialists mindset works!

The debate kicked off this morning on BBC Radio 4 Today. Lord Mandelson, a former EU commissioner, said giving the public a vote would be a "lottery" and the outcome could be affected by factors other than Europe.

So if saying that that part is truth, what do you make of the idea that this 'invasion of foreigners' is a myth?

Well a million Poles, a couple of hundred thou of other nationalities already here with more to come kinda debunks the 'myth'.

[thebish]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

[bobo the clown]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

He's exaggerating.

It's only approx. 721,000, barely 521,000 'new' ones. So hardly an issue at all.

"At the time of the 2011 Census, 521,000 Polish-born people reported being resident in the UK,and there is a wider population of British Poles including the descendants of over 200,000 immigrants who settled in the UK after World War II.

Poles are the third largest foreign born community after Irish and Indian born people. Since 2004 there is an increasing number of Polish - British citizens in the UK."

[Hoboh]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

He's exaggerating.

It's only approx. 721,000, barely 521,000 'new' ones. So hardly an issue at all.

"At the time of the 2011 Census, 521,000 Polish-born people reported being resident in the UK,and there is a wider population of British Poles including the descendants of over 200,000 immigrants who settled in the UK after World War II.

Poles are the third largest foreign born community after Irish and Indian born people. Since 2004 there is an increasing number of Polish - British citizens in the UK."

The largest amphibious invasion in world history and was executed by land, sea and air elements under direct Anglo-American command with over 160,000 soldiers landing on 6 June 1944: 73,000 Americans, 61,715 British and 21,400 Canadians. 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel in over 5,000 ships were also involved.

That was D-Day, considerably less numbers than Poles invading us and thats not counting other EU nationals.

[Prufrock]

So the third biggest group of immigrants count for about 1 in every 130 or so people? How will we cope?

[thebish]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

fair enough - if doubling the number is not "twisting the details"!!

[Beefheart]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But on it own that doesn't really mean anything. Is half a million over a decade a lot?

This summary from the same site gives a better picture I think:

•503,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending June 2013, compared to the 517,000 people who immigrated during the previous year.
•Emigration is at its lowest level since 2001. In the year ending June 2013, 320,000 emigrants left the UK, which is lower than the 349,000 people who emigrated during the previous year. The fall in emigration is driving an increase in net migration.
•There was a net flow of 182,000 long-term migrants to the UK in the year ending June 2013, the first annual increase for two years. However, this is not a statistically significant difference from the 167,000 in the year ending June 2012.
•Immigration of non-EU citizens saw a statistically significant decrease to 242,000 in the year ending June 2013 from 282,000 the previous year. Fewer New Commonwealth citizens migrated to the UK for formal study, now similar to estimates in 2005/06.
•183,000 EU citizens immigrated in the year ending June 2013, not a statistically significant change from the estimate of 158,000 for the previous year. There was a statistically significant increase in EU15 citizens arriving for work-related reasons

Now again, I don't know, is a net migration of 182,000 a lot?

Does it constitute an 'invasion'?

[Hoboh]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But on it own that doesn't really mean anything. Is half a million over a decade a lot?

This summary from the same site gives a better picture I think:

•503,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending June 2013, compared to the 517,000 people who immigrated during the previous year.
•Emigration is at its lowest level since 2001. In the year ending June 2013, 320,000 emigrants left the UK, which is lower than the 349,000 people who emigrated during the previous year. The fall in emigration is driving an increase in net migration.
•There was a net flow of 182,000 long-term migrants to the UK in the year ending June 2013, the first annual increase for two years. However, this is not a statistically significant difference from the 167,000 in the year ending June 2012.
•Immigration of non-EU citizens saw a statistically significant decrease to 242,000 in the year ending June 2013 from 282,000 the previous year. Fewer New Commonwealth citizens migrated to the UK for formal study, now similar to estimates in 2005/06.
•183,000 EU citizens immigrated in the year ending June 2013, not a statistically significant change from the estimate of 158,000 for the previous year. There was a statistically significant increase in EU15 citizens arriving for work-related reasons

Now again, I don't know, is a net migration of 182,000 a lot?

Does it constitute an 'invasion'?

Yes, more so because net migration is climbing again.
I am firmly of the believe that movement of people within the EU is part of the great plan to neutralise individual states in pursuit of the United States of Europe.

[Beefheart]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But on it own that doesn't really mean anything. Is half a million over a decade a lot?

This summary from the same site gives a better picture I think:

•503,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending June 2013, compared to the 517,000 people who immigrated during the previous year.
•Emigration is at its lowest level since 2001. In the year ending June 2013, 320,000 emigrants left the UK, which is lower than the 349,000 people who emigrated during the previous year. The fall in emigration is driving an increase in net migration.
•There was a net flow of 182,000 long-term migrants to the UK in the year ending June 2013, the first annual increase for two years. However, this is not a statistically significant difference from the 167,000 in the year ending June 2012.
•Immigration of non-EU citizens saw a statistically significant decrease to 242,000 in the year ending June 2013 from 282,000 the previous year. Fewer New Commonwealth citizens migrated to the UK for formal study, now similar to estimates in 2005/06.
•183,000 EU citizens immigrated in the year ending June 2013, not a statistically significant change from the estimate of 158,000 for the previous year. There was a statistically significant increase in EU15 citizens arriving for work-related reasons

Now again, I don't know, is a net migration of 182,000 a lot?

Does it constitute an 'invasion'?

Did 160,000 on D-Day?

Yes, because that was actually an invasion.

182,000 averages at about 500 a day. We wouldn't have secured the beach head in Normandy at that rate would we?

[Hoboh]

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.
There are in total over a million people who regard themslves to be Polish, many that settled before the statistics.
Still it's more than a myth about an invasion not happening which ever way you care to look at or twist the detail

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But on it own that doesn't really mean anything. Is half a million over a decade a lot?

This summary from the same site gives a better picture I think:

•503,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending June 2013, compared to the 517,000 people who immigrated during the previous year.
•Emigration is at its lowest level since 2001. In the year ending June 2013, 320,000 emigrants left the UK, which is lower than the 349,000 people who emigrated during the previous year. The fall in emigration is driving an increase in net migration.
•There was a net flow of 182,000 long-term migrants to the UK in the year ending June 2013, the first annual increase for two years. However, this is not a statistically significant difference from the 167,000 in the year ending June 2012.
•Immigration of non-EU citizens saw a statistically significant decrease to 242,000 in the year ending June 2013 from 282,000 the previous year. Fewer New Commonwealth citizens migrated to the UK for formal study, now similar to estimates in 2005/06.
•183,000 EU citizens immigrated in the year ending June 2013, not a statistically significant change from the estimate of 158,000 for the previous year. There was a statistically significant increase in EU15 citizens arriving for work-related reasons

Now again, I don't know, is a net migration of 182,000 a lot?

Does it constitute an 'invasion'?

Did 160,000 on D-Day?

Yes, because that was actually an invasion.

182,000 averages at about 500 a day. We wouldn't have secured the beach head in Normandy at that rate would we?

I was merely playing a numbers game there, but it is an invasion that is on the up again from EU nations.

[Bruce Rioja]

I was merely playing a numbers game there.

This is you playing the numbers game is it?

where do you get your statistic that there are a million Poles in the UK?

Ok I made an error, it's half a million Polish born Poles in the UK 2001-2010.

[Worthy4England]

Yes, more so because net migration is climbing again.
I am firmly of the believe that movement of people within the EU is part of the great plan to neutralise individual states in pursuit of the United States of Europe.

Do you ever park on foreign benches in your day job Hoboh?

I'm fairly sure there's quite a few on here that work in more than one country. Are you suggesting that's wrong?

[thebish]

interestingly...

there are 150,000 uk citizens living in France, 104,175 living in Germany, 390,880 living in Spain, 29,184 in Italy, 764 in Poland... across the whole EU, there are estimated to be something like a million UK citizens living/working/dossing abroad...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Top 10 destinations for UK expats*

Australia 1,062,000 (251,000)

USA 829,000 (140,000)

Spain 808,000 (104,000)

Canada 608,000 (157,000)

Ireland 289,000 (126,000

France 253,000 (57,000)

New Zealand 248,000 (54,000)

South Africa 219,000 (38,000)

Germany 97,000 (39,000)

UAE 65,000 (680)

*Table shows numbers of expats in each country, and in brackets the number of pensioners

Source: IPPR, DWP.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/n ... xpats-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebish]

your figures are a lot higher than mine - but either way, I'm sure hoboh will be SHOCKED and ENRAGED at the way UK citizens are invading Europe...

there'r a slightly more hysterical infographic doing the fb rounds which is closer to your figures than mine - and I suspect slightly exaggerated... but...



we especially seem to be invading that poor tiny country - Ireland...

[Lord Kangana]

Would it be mischievous of me to throw the hand grenade of "double counting" into the debate at this point?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://sorrelish.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03 ... ching.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two people I respect (with no connection to each other other than me, I would guess), both pretty left-leaning, shared this on Facebook today.

I do think that the idea that 'everyone has the right to the same basic standard of living, regardless of their personal situation' is interesting. Actually I agree, but I don't think that basic standard includes flatscreen TVs and laptops (incidentally I'm not saying that people on JSA can afford this - I know that isn't the case) and I do not think that 'lifestyle choices such as cigarettes, obesity or alcohol' are 'irrelevant'.

It's a conversation well worth having - what are the basic acceptable living standards in Britain in 2014?