Underperforming Players?

[BWFC_Insane]

Mills
Knight
Ream
Spearing
Mark Davies
Pratley
Lee
Ngog
Bogdan
Eagles

That is a list of players who were in the squad for the Reading game and were also here at the start of last season (or before), so under a previous manager or two. There are a lot of comments about players "underperforming".

But which of those players on an individual basis are worse this season than they have been for us in the past as an average?

I can only really put Lee in that category. And that is probably due to previous injury, though as I've always said this division probably doesn't suit him. You could argue Eagles, but only based on a run towards the end of last season not if form is taken across his whole time here I'd say he's performing about his average. Spearing is playing worse than he did in the run-in last season but probably about the same as he did in the first 6 months here.

Mills has definitely been better than last season. Ream similarly so. Pratley has improved under Freedman. NGog has been erratic at best all the way along, Eagles the same. Knight, I'm not sure has gotten any worse or better.

So are these players really "underperforming"?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

They aren't performing to an acceptable standard, likely a combination of their own and the idiot in charge. If they weren't under-performing then we wouldn't even be discussing the subject on here.

[BWFC_Insane]

They aren't performing to an acceptable standard, likely a combination of their own and the idiot in charge. If they weren't under-performing then we wouldn't even be discussing the subject on here.

Fine but that is somewhat arbitrary.

What I'm asking is, out of those players, which are significantly worse this season or even just worse, individually then they have ever been for us?

For them to be underperforming I'd assume that we're not seeing the levels of individual performance we used to.

The question is simply, are they underperforming or are they really, just not very good? Because as I go through that list, I'm struggling to say that apart from Lee the other 9 are any worse this season individually than they were in the past. Frighteningly a couple at least have played better this season than they have for us previously.

Like I'd see underperforming as Nolan when Allardyce left and he went a bit shite and stopped scoring and just started pointing. We knew he'd been a good player at that level for us before over an extended period, but he just seemed to dip in form. Then he left us and went back to being a better player.

I don't see that in the players listed.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't see why a player needs to be compared 'now' from 'then' in order to be described as underperforming as per your assumption. Just because N'gog has underperformed his entire life doesn't mean he's not underperforming now. The parameter is not set by his standard, but by the standard you'd expect a reasonable player to achieve.

[Lord Kangana]

They must be performing at the very least worse than last season, as we did better last year. So, yes, they're capable of better, and no they're not achieving it.

[jaffka]

Is this another topic that will try and deflect criticism from our 'under-performing', amateur, chancer and dipstick of a manager?

[BWFC_Insane]

They must be performing at the very least worse than last season, as we did better last year. So, yes, they're capable of better, and no they're not achieving it.

That is a collective measure and also dependent upon a lot of other factors. And of course isn't like for like. We haven't got exactly the same players for example.

But look at individuals and in my view at least the story painted is not one of them suddenly being "worse" this season than previously.

[Lord Kangana]

We've lost SKD, Dawson, Keith Andrews, Sordell and arguably Petrov. Anyone else worth mentioning?

We could have kept pretty much all of them. Bar one.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't see why a player needs to be compared 'now' from 'then' in order to be described as underperforming as per your assumption. Just because N'gog has underperformed his entire life doesn't mean he's not underperforming now. The parameter is not set by his standard, but by the standard you'd expect a reasonable player to achieve.

Generally because underperforming means "they should be doing better" because they've shown themselves to be better. I'm questioning whether that is really the case.

Another thing that concerns me is I look down the list and there isn't one player there who I'd say "yeah he'll drag us through".

We used to, even when we were shite, have players who you could depend upon to at least be solid, turn up each week and well, know what you'd get from them.

Apart from possibly Danns, I'm struggling to see characters like that. In fact it could be our biggest problem. A collection of very unrealiable players.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not really arbitrary though is it. Case for the prosecution:

League position
Goal difference/goals for/goals against (however you cut it)
Pass completion
Shots on target vs not on target
Number of wins

Can anyone hand on heart say that any of that lot is satisfactory.

[LeverEnd]

Is this another topic that will try and deflect criticism from our 'under-performing', amateur, chancer and dipstick of a manager?

When he gives them the not good enough spiel at training I hope some of them told him to pull his own finger out and where he's going wrong. A good old barney then STFU and knuckle down til they can move on/be moved on.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not really arbitrary though is it. Case for the prosecution:

League position
Goal difference/goals for/goals against (however you cut it)
Pass completion
Shots on target vs not on target
Number of wins

Can anyone hand on heart say that any of that lot is satisfactory.

I'm saying of these individuals, which have in the past played significantly better over a period of time than they are this season? Who is "underperforming" based on past performance.

Because there is no argument that we are absolutely shite. That is a given. It is a question of whether individuals are actually underperforming or merely playing to their ability at a level that is in fact where they, in the main belong.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

They must be performing at the very least worse than last season, as we did better last year. So, yes, they're capable of better, and no they're not achieving it.

Can't argue with anything in your second sentence but it's a different set of players (some the same, but a different set). As discussed elsewhere players like Dawson seemed to drag players upwards.

League starts last season – those who've since left in bold:
43 Knight
41 Bogdan
40 Eagles
36 Spearing
34 Lee
30 Ricketts
28 KDavies
25 Alonso
25 Mears*
23 MDavies
23 Ngog
23 Pratley
22 Andrews
16 Dawson
16 Mills
15 Warnock
13 Ream

*Not actually left but may as well have done

Not quite sure what this means but I was surprised at how much we relied on several now-goners last season... things are changing, just not as quickly as we all want.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't see why a player needs to be compared 'now' from 'then' in order to be described as underperforming as per your assumption. Just because N'gog has underperformed his entire life doesn't mean he's not underperforming now. The parameter is not set by his standard, but by the standard you'd expect a reasonable player to achieve.

Generally because underperforming means "they should be doing better" because they've shown themselves to be better. I'm questioning whether that is really the case.

Another thing that concerns me is I look down the list and there isn't one player there who I'd say "yeah he'll drag us through".

We used to, even when we were shite, have players who you could depend upon to at least be solid, turn up each week and well, know what you'd get from them.

Apart from possibly Danns, I'm struggling to see characters like that. In fact it could be our biggest problem. A collection of very unrealiable players.

You ask Are they really underperforming?
And then say you don't think so...
And then say they are a collection of unreliable players...
all within one page.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not really arbitrary though is it. Case for the prosecution:

League position
Goal difference/goals for/goals against (however you cut it)
Pass completion
Shots on target vs not on target
Number of wins

Can anyone hand on heart say that any of that lot is satisfactory.

I'm saying of these individuals, which have in the past played significantly better over a period of time than they are this season? Who is "underperforming" based on past performance.

Because there is no argument that we are absolutely shite. That is a given. It is a question of whether individuals are actually under performing or merely playing to their ability at a level that is in fact where they, in the main belong.

All of them if you need to stick to your narrow definition. Every single last one of them is performing worse than they have in the past during their professional careers. I'm probably being a bit harsh on Lonergan there, maybe Danns as well. But the rest of them are under performing by any definition you care to dream up.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not really arbitrary though is it. Case for the prosecution:

League position
Goal difference/goals for/goals against (however you cut it)
Pass completion
Shots on target vs not on target
Number of wins

Can anyone hand on heart say that any of that lot is satisfactory.

I'm saying of these individuals, which have in the past played significantly better over a period of time than they are this season? Who is "underperforming" based on past performance.

Because there is no argument that we are absolutely shite. That is a given. It is a question of whether individuals are actually under performing or merely playing to their ability at a level that is in fact where they, in the main belong.

All of them if you need to stick to your narrow definition. Every single last one of them is performing worse than they have in the past during their professional careers. I'm probably being a bit harsh on Lonergan there, maybe Danns as well. But the rest of them are under performing by any definition you care to dream up.

Well I disagree.

I think Knight since being here has been a liability and still is.

Eagles came in and was absolutely berated in his first season here in the premiership, where he was to be fair out of his depth. Last season he was good in patches and poor (and booed) for the middle part. Eagles is still inconsistent. I see no real change.

Spearing was poor until (as Bruce points out) Dawson came in. He has reverted to where he was for the first 6 months last season.

Mills was a liability and a slow one when he arrived. He is a bit better this season.

Ream was absolutely terrible last season and has improved this season, markedly.

NGog, well, I think he's just NGog......and don't think he will ever be owt else.

Just my views, but I genuinely struggle to see those players as underperforming when I look at them individually. I just see them doing what they've always done here.

[Lord Kangana]

Who has Dougie signed that's ripped up trees?

Really and honestly, lets cut the crap time, who? Seriously, do you think any of them have?

[Lord Kangana]

They must be performing at the very least worse than last season, as we did better last year. So, yes, they're capable of better, and no they're not achieving it.

Can't argue with anything in your second sentence but it's a different set of players (some the same, but a different set). As discussed elsewhere players like Dawson seemed to drag players upwards.

League starts last season – those who've since left in bold:
43 Knight
41 Bogdan
40 Eagles
36 Spearing
34 Lee
30 Ricketts
28 KDavies
25 Alonso
25 Mears*
23 MDavies
23 Ngog
23 Pratley
22 Andrews
16 Dawson
16 Mills
15 Warnock
13 Ream

*Not actually left but may as well have done

Not quite sure what this means but I was surprised at how much we relied on several now-goners last season... things are changing, just not as quickly as we all want.

The evidence becomes even more damning.

Which of those did he want to keep, and which were making a significant difference?

[Norpig]

Surely it does not matter if we think they are under performing, the man in charge (at the moment) DF does think they are under performing. My problem is he seems reluctant to drop the players he considers not to be pulling their weight. Why does he not just drop these players and replace them with some of our more promising youngsters. Lets face it the usual under performing players have now had long enough to prove themselves. It is up to the manager to drop a few and give youth a chance. However, DF has proved he is a manager who struggles with making positive decisions both on and off the pitch. My point is Dougie should either put up or shut up and f-off before we are swapping places with Wolves, the time for talking is well and truly over!!

[BWFC_Insane]

Surely it does not matter if we think they are under performing, the man in charge (at the moment) DF does think they are under performing. My problem is he seems reluctant to drop the players he considers not to be pulling their weight. Why does he not just drop these players and replace them with some of our more promising youngsters. Lets face it the usual under performing players have now had long enough to prove themselves. It is up to the manager to drop a few and give youth a chance. However, DF has proved he is a manager who struggles with making positive decisions both on and off the pitch. My point is Dougie should either put up or shut up and f-off before we are swapping places with Wolves, the time for talking is well and truly over!!

He has said he doesn't think they are good enough. Which is different.

And as much as throwing the kids in might seem appealing, if your kids aren't ready and get battered 4/5-0 every week (and lets keep perspective it was our FIRST defeat of 2014 on Saturday) on the way to relegation it won't do any good for the club, nor for the kids who get their confidence knocked out of them and their reputations tarnished.