Freedman out!

[Lord Kangana]

Hang on though Worthy, he may have bankrolled that money, but again its he who has overseen the corporate ethos that means we owe that much money. I think its a spectacular piece of disconnect to suggest that the decisions made at board level haven't had an effect on the direction we've taken.

I freely admit to not understanding the vagaries of exactly what the relationship is between BWFC and the various subsidiary companies, but lets not pretend its a purely altruistic one, it makes for a poor forum for discussion.

[Devon White]

I'm getting increasingly worried about what the medium-term future of our club holds.

I'm just worried that there doesn't appear to be anyone in a decision making capacity doing anything to address our alarmingly rapid decline....that gets worse every week.

Its that bad I think the board are quite happy to let this continue, WHY ?

We stay up they take us into admin, take the points deduction, hopefully we stay up. debt gone
We get relegated , they take us into admin, take the points reduction, hopefully we stay up, debt gone.
Its the pathetic world of football

[StaffsTrotter]

Hang on though Worthy, he may have bankrolled that money, but again its he who has overseen the corporate ethos that means we owe that much money. I think its a spectacular piece of disconnect to suggest that the decisions made at board level haven't had an effect on the direction we've taken.

I freely admit to not understanding the vagaries of exactly what the relationship is between BWFC and the various subsidiary companies, but lets not pretend its a purely altruistic one, it makes for a poor forum for discussion.

its more altruistic than business sense. As has been noted we unfortunately hit the perfect storm in terms timing our relegation, increased PL monies and FFP.

[officer_dibble]

If its true gartsides creaming 700k pa still...Id be sanctioning pitchforks, bed sheets etc. he's the one for me - but he is eddies man...why??

[Worthy4England]

Hang on though Worthy, he may have bankrolled that money, but again its he who has overseen the corporate ethos that means we owe that much money. I think its a spectacular piece of disconnect to suggest that the decisions made at board level haven't had an effect on the direction we've taken.

I freely admit to not understanding the vagaries of exactly what the relationship is between BWFC and the various subsidiary companies, but lets not pretend its a purely altruistic one, it makes for a poor forum for discussion.

He has indeed. And in fairness, we paid to Moonshift last year £8.3m - whether any money actually changes hands - who knows. So I'm sure not "entirely" altruistic, but I'm fairly sure he's put more than a "little" of his fortune in.

After watching a team that I can recall playing at Aldershot, drawing with Bayern Munich, beating Atletico, seeing Djorkaeff, Campo, JJ and the likes, I'm willing to give the benefit of any doubt (not that I have any doubt), that ED has given more than he's taking.

The fact that we've now hit on a bad patch, is part and parcel of being a Bolton fan, I think it's a bit rich to start questioning his commitment just because we're going through said bad patch.

[Lord Kangana]

Its not his commitment. I think that's the issue. Its the blind acceptance of a structure that has us owing £163m to the man who oversaw us racking up £163m.... owed to him. I reserve the right to worry about that until such time as someone says "ta-da! All gone". That's questioning motive not commitment.

[Worthy4England]

Its not his commitment. I think that's the issue. Its the blind acceptance of a structure that has us owing £163m to the man who oversaw us racking up £163m.... owed to him. I reserve the right to worry about that until such time as someone says "ta-da! All gone". That's questioning motive not commitment.

I'll leave you to worry about that one then.

[Leyther]

Its not that unbelievable Staffs T. ED has been a big part of the club through some good times that we've all enjoyed. I'm not having a major pop at him, its his money and i've loved the good times but he's clearly been in a position to make decisons and choices once the slide began.

We are now sat 4 points off relegation to the third division, with a clown in charge, with an eye watering debt and annual losses that can rival Europe's finest. If I've left my laminate copy of him out in the botton drawer tonight I apologise.

Worthy's point is a fair one - ED has a clear view of the constraints Freedman is working under and maybe thinks he's doing ok in the circumstances. Or he has better things to concern him through the week than the Wanderers score. As fans we just see turgid tactics, dreadful performances and a fast approaching dotted line of the bottom three places.

[bobo the clown]

Worthy's point is a fair one - ED has a clear view of the constraints Freedman is working under and maybe thinks he's doing ok in the circumstances. Or he has better things to concern him through the week than the Wanderers score. As fans we just see turgid tactics, dreadful performances and a fast approaching dotted line of the bottom three places.

I've thought this previously, but it doesn't add up.

"The circumstances" would fully explain why we are selling some players and replacing them cheaply. Why we may be open to bids. Why we won't be renewing certain contracts.

However, "the circumstances" don't explain how we are playing such turgid football. Why we are worrying about teams with half the talent. Why he has Eagles & Hall & Moritz and Mavies yet still prefers to play Medo and Spearing together. They don't explain why we are trying to borrow Mason, signed another non-scoring forward to replace Cravies. Why we have no left backs. Why he chose Knight as his captain. Nor why we have Mears sidelined and are playing Knight, despite his performances, and pushing Ream out left now we've found he can actually play alongside Mills.

None of that is to do with being broke. It's to do with him being a clueless wanker.

[Jugs]

Worthy's point is a fair one - ED has a clear view of the constraints Freedman is working under and maybe thinks he's doing ok in the circumstances. Or he has better things to concern him through the week than the Wanderers score. As fans we just see turgid tactics, dreadful performances and a fast approaching dotted line of the bottom three places.

I've thought them previously, but it doesn't add up.

"The circumstances" would fully explain why we are selling some players and replacing them cheaply. Why we may be open to bids. Why we won't be renewing certain contracts.

However, "the circumstances" don't explain how we are playing such turgid football. Why we are worrying about teams with half the talent. Why he has Eagles & Hall & Moritz and Mavies yet still prefers to play Medo and Spearing together. They don't explain why we are trying to borrow Mason, signed another non-scoring forward to replace Cravies. Why we have no left backs. Why he chose Knight as his captain. Nor why we have Mears sidelined and are playing Knight, despite his performances, and pushing Ream out left now we've found he can actually play alongside Mills.

None of that is to do with being broke. It's to do with him being a clueless wanker.

Agreed.

[Worthy4England]

Worthy's point is a fair one - ED has a clear view of the constraints Freedman is working under and maybe thinks he's doing ok in the circumstances. Or he has better things to concern him through the week than the Wanderers score. As fans we just see turgid tactics, dreadful performances and a fast approaching dotted line of the bottom three places.

I've thought this previously, but it doesn't add up.

"The circumstances" would fully explain why we are selling some players and replacing them cheaply. Why we may be open to bids. Why we won't be renewing certain contracts.

However, "the circumstances" don't explain how we are playing such turgid football. Why we are worrying about teams with half the talent. Why he has Eagles & Hall & Moritz and Mavies yet still prefers to play Medo and Spearing together. They don't explain why we are trying to borrow Mason, signed another non-scoring forward to replace Cravies. Why we have no left backs. Why he chose Knight as his captain. Nor why we have Mears sidelined and are playing Knight, despite his performances, and pushing Ream out left now we've found he can actually play alongside Mills.

None of that is to do with being broke. It's to do with him being a clueless wanker.

Wouldn't disagree on that front.

[BWFC_Insane]

One might consider that we are in a fairly long line of clubs to find ourselves in this kind of position having left the premiership after a relatively lengthy stay.

Southampton, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Coventry, Middlesbrough, Charlton, Leicester, Wolves etc have all found themselves struggling in the championship fairly soon after, or worse......

In fact far fewer clubs have recovered than have subsequently struggled.

My worry is that Freedman or not Freedman, Gartside or not, I cannot see any way that we can significantly reverse this slide. We had a miracle when we found Allardyce but he inherited a squad with quality players some of whom were released for cash. Even if we found a miracle managerial cure the tools simply aren't there.

But then over all that hangs the debt, FFP and an owner and Chairman who are perhaps less interested in the club than they once were or possibly just as lost with the situation as we all feel.

In short I'm very scared. Not for this season or next, but for the next decade or two....

[William the White]

One might consider that we are in a fairly long line of clubs to find ourselves in this kind of position having left the premiership after a relatively lengthy stay.

Southampton, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Coventry, Middlesbrough, Charlton, Leicester, Wolves etc have all found themselves struggling in the championship fairly soon after, or worse......

In fact far fewer clubs have recovered than have subsequently struggled.

My worry is that Freedman or not Freedman, Gartside or not, I cannot see any way that we can significantly reverse this slide. We had a miracle when we found Allardyce but he inherited a squad with quality players some of whom were released for cash. Even if we found a miracle managerial cure the tools simply aren't there.

But then over all that hangs the debt, FFP and an owner and Chairman who are perhaps less interested in the club than they once were or possibly just as lost with the situation as we all feel.

In short I'm very scared. Not for this season or next, but for the next decade or two....

Indeed. Here our club has history. Two massive number of years when relegation from the top division has led to 13/14 years of absence... We have other history also - when the absence has been five seasons or fewer.

I presume from your tone in your recent posts that your previous infatuation with Freedman - a 'proper manager at last' etc - has cooled. And certainly you've little evidence to support your previous view that he has more to offer than Allardyce...

Finances are now king, I suspect... The sums are long enough to cause massive alarm to the uneducated (like me)... Given the history of the British financial sector the uneducated may have a more rational perspective than the players...

I share your concern... I don't know how we get out of this short of promotion... That looks like someway off and at the moment 18 clubs we need to overtake... or two to undertake to go the other way...

[Harry Genshaw]

Freedman is failing with the group of players he has at his disposal now. How on earth is he going to cope when we have to clear the decks in the summer and bring in kids and supposedly lesser players (i.e. those on lower wages)?

Next season we'll either be competing in the Championship with a weakened squad or in League 1. Right now, and leaving him in charge, I cant see us going anywhere other than down

[SmokinFrazier]

One might consider that we are in a fairly long line of clubs to find ourselves in this kind of position having left the premiership after a relatively lengthy stay.

Southampton, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Coventry, Middlesbrough, Charlton, Leicester, Wolves etc have all found themselves struggling in the championship fairly soon after, or worse......

In fact far fewer clubs have recovered than have subsequently struggled.

My worry is that Freedman or not Freedman, Gartside or not, I cannot see any way that we can significantly reverse this slide. We had a miracle when we found Allardyce but he inherited a squad with quality players some of whom were released for cash. Even if we found a miracle managerial cure the tools simply aren't there.

But then over all that hangs the debt, FFP and an owner and Chairman who are perhaps less interested in the club than they once were or possibly just as lost with the situation as we all feel.

In short I'm very scared. Not for this season or next, but for the next decade or two....

History, whether ours or other teams, has absolutely nothing to do with it. Two seasons ago, we were relegated on the last day because we couldn't get a winner in a game we drew and last season, we almost got into the play-offs despite a poor start to the season. Both of those seasons were almost successful despite being managed by two awful managers, so what's to say that if we had a manager who had a clue, we'd have ended up getting promoted last year? Pointing to history is irrelevant; we have a team right now that has proven to be capable of doing vastly better than we currently are doing, so if we improved even a tiny amount, we should have been able to mount a serious promotion bid this year. I couldn't care less what has happened to other clubs in their past or what happened to us, it's 100% irrelevant to what an awful season we're having.

So, yes, we can "reverse the slide" and we should have done that this year. We should have done that several months ago by sacking Freedman and trying to get promoted this season too.Our recovery doesn't have to be prolonged, we simply need to improve on the pitch, which the players are capable of but the manager isn't, and when the results improve, everything off the pitch will. Get promotion, which was a real target before the start of the season, and our financial woes are still there but would be addressed by the additional financial reward of being in the Premier League.

The fact is though, Freedman is simply not a good enough manager to get us anywhere. We makes basic errors defensively, which are his responsibility, and we can't create any chances, which is also his responsibility. What we've seen in the past two years are two solid squads being horribly mismanaged by two managers who simply aren't up to it. Coyle isn't a Premier League manager and I guarantee that Freedman won't be managing at any professional level within 10 years.

Talk about the off the field stuff all you want, that doesn't interest me, nor is it relevant to our problems on the pitch. Our problems on the pitch and reason for our failure this season lie solely at Freedman's feet. He is an appallingly bad manager and regardless of how much you want to deflect criticism from him, that fact remains.

[Tombwfc]

It's simply not good enough to say 'Well Southampton/Wolves/Leeds all went down to League One so we're destined to go the same way'. It's bollocks. Football isn't dictated by some higher force, it's what happens on the pitch. If we go down it will be because we appointed an incompetent manager and refused to admit we got it wrong. Just like it was when we surrendered our Premier League status.

Last season after 46 games us and Leicester City finished with an identical number of points. Since then they've signed three people on frees (the most notable of which is 444 year old Kevin Phillips) and a £400k winger from France. We signed Spearing for £3m, a couple of kids for a £1m and added the wages of Beckford, Baptiste, Tierney and a variety of others. They are currently 38 points ahead of us.

There is not a single reason, nor even a mitigating factor, for why we are as bad as we are.

[BWFC_Insane]

Freedman is failing with the group of players he has at his disposal now. How on earth is he going to cope when we have to clear the decks in the summer and bring in kids and supposedly lesser players (i.e. those on lower wages)?

Next season we'll either be competing in the Championship with a weakened squad or in League 1. Right now, and leaving him in charge, I cant see us going anywhere other than down

But isn't that the hope? He's done similar at Palace and built a team on scraps and kids that was at the top of the table. Isn't that why he's here because that is the long term plan, cut the wage bill and bring in cheaper players and develop the kids?

I mean the problem is it seems he just can't work with these players who know they're leaving the club, can't get them going. But longer term I assume and hope that he is going to be working to that sort of mandate.

That is partly the worry I have if we change manager we are likely to need proper championship experience. But then would someone with that perspective necessarily have he drive and ideas to bring through the kids, spend very little and rebuild a team against the backdrop of unhappy fans and tired board members we have here?

I also realise that we are in very grave danger of going down and it seems like Freedman whatever he tries is in the short term at least, getting nowhere.

I don't know what the answer is.

[jaffka]

It's looking increasingly like he got very lucky at palace. He is very lucky to still be in a job here.

[Jugs]

One might consider that we are in a fairly long line of clubs to find ourselves in this kind of position having left the premiership after a relatively lengthy stay.

Southampton, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Coventry, Middlesbrough, Charlton, Leicester, Wolves etc have all found themselves struggling in the championship fairly soon after, or worse......

In fact far fewer clubs have recovered than have subsequently struggled.

My worry is that Freedman or not Freedman, Gartside or not, I cannot see any way that we can significantly reverse this slide. We had a miracle when we found Allardyce but he inherited a squad with quality players some of whom were released for cash. Even if we found a miracle managerial cure the tools simply aren't there.

But then over all that hangs the debt, FFP and an owner and Chairman who are perhaps less interested in the club than they once were or possibly just as lost with the situation as we all feel.

In short I'm very scared. Not for this season or next, but for the next decade or two....

I wouldn't be scared at all if we had a manager who didn't make such daft decisions. We don't need to submit ourselves to fate and say 'well, it happened to others so it will probably happen to us,' we just need a decent manager who doesn't make daft decisions.

[Lord Kangana]

I mean the problem is it seems he just can't work with these players who know they're leaving the club, can't get them going. But longer term I assume and hope that he is going to be working to that sort of mandate.

This is the bit of propagated nonsense that runs away with itself if it isn't challenged.

He's brought plenty of his own players to the club. Plenty. Indeed, he's already seen fit to ship some out. And he seems to prefer the players he has been left to the players he bought. What other explanation can there be, other than he considers them better? Otherwise, he's not playing our best 11. And that's grounds enough for dismissal.