Freedman out!

[bobo the clown]

Two swallows does not a fully fledged love-life make.

I mean, well done and all that but he has a lot of making up to do, over a sustained period. Having stumbled, finally, onto an equation which has worked twice cuts little ice in the short-term.

If he and they can maintain this I'll eat my words ... happily ... but there's a way to go yet.

[LeverEnd]

Whatever the results now, the season has been blown by inept management and tactical negativity. I'd still clear him out at the end of the season with whichever high earners we're getting rid of.

[Lord Kangana]

If one player was all the difference between us being shit and us being brilliant, why did he sign all the other players and not just him, in so doing saving money and getting him sooner?

[StaffsTrotter]

I think its fascinating insight into the human psyche in an amateur psycho-babble kind of way. Its a bit like you hear of people in abusive relationship, where 1% of kindness, makes up for 99% of abuse.

The truly interesting bit is that you'd expect DF to have done something to have built up 'credit' with people to ride out the bumpier times. There are some very forgiving people with a lot of faith out there (yes that can be a good thing).

[LeverEnd]

I think he did get some grace off the back of last season's run, but after 30 games of shite that quite rightly was extinguished.

[a1]

how many games of shite did Sir Claps-A-Lot have ?

the united game 'til the millwall game ?

thats a lot of good grace for not being as good as andy walker

[StaffsTrotter]

how many games of shite did Sir Claps-A-Lot have ?

the united game 'til the millwall game ?

thats a lot of good grace for not being as good as andy walker

erm, I assume you mean coyle. didn't he do well for the first part of his tenure - weren't we playing exciting football, in the top half of the table and got to a s-f. I'll put to one side the fact he played for us in a pretty exciting period of our recent history. together that kind of built up 'credit'

[bobo the clown]

Re Coyle, if you had a Tardis and could go to 'the moment' (though frankly, if I had a Tardis I'd just get the winning numbers for one of those huge Euro-Millions draws, but I digress...) it was the Johnny Evans tackle on Holden.

Then the Stoke game, from which he never recovered. (oddly, the win at home v Arsenal straight after being the exception). He looked like a rabbit in headlights from then on. He should have gone after (well, preferably BEFORE) that semi-final. But, of course, it doesn't work like that. There were many, many more opportunities of course & he ought to have gone after that very poor start to the following season. He should have gone by that November. His decision making was shot.

He got lucky via injuries and suspensions and a system he didn't want was forced on him and we had a decent run. Then .... the Wiggin at home match when he reverted to his failed system. He should have been sacked at half-time in that game.

Dougie .... after his "worst start any any football team, anywhere, ever". He should have been out by October 2013.

[StaffsTrotter]

Re Coyle, if you had a Tardis and could go to 'the moment' (though frankly, if I had a Tardis I'd just get the winning numbers for one of those huge Euro-Millions draws, but I digress...) it was the Johnny Evans tackle on Holden.

Then the Stoke game, from which he never recovered. (oddly, the win at home v Arsenal straight after being the exception). He looked like a rabbit in headlights from then on. He should have gone after (well, preferably BEFORE) that semi-final. But, of course, it doesn't work like that. There were many, many more opportunities of course & he ought to have gone after that very poor start to the following season. He should have gone by that November. His decision making was shot.

He got lucky via injuries and suspensions and a system he didn't want was forced on him and we had a decent run. Then .... the Wiggin at home match when he reverted to his failed system. He should have been sacked at half-time in that game.

Dougie .... after his "worst start any any football team, anywhere, ever". He should have been out by October 2013.

the stuart holden was a sad turning point both v stretford and then after his impressive comeback v villa. as you say with the exception of the arsenal home game, we basically lost - not remembered till I just looked that it was only on the last day that we dropped from 8th to 14th.
as for the following season, I will say that I didnt call for coyle out (DF has broken my virginity in that regard). there were always glimmers of hope with results against relegation rivals, even though a lot seemed to run against us, muamba etc and whilst its all ifs and buts, I'd still say we would have survived (just), if it hadn't been for the pie eaters pulling out those phenomenal set of results. In hindsight, I'd say the end of relgation season was the time for him to go, but again, I'll admit that I thought we'd finished in reasonable form and was confident for our foray into the champship - shows what I know.

[BWFC_Insane]

Re Coyle, if you had a Tardis and could go to 'the moment' (though frankly, if I had a Tardis I'd just get the winning numbers for one of those huge Euro-Millions draws, but I digress...) it was the Johnny Evans tackle on Holden.

Then the Stoke game, from which he never recovered. (oddly, the win at home v Arsenal straight after being the exception). He looked like a rabbit in headlights from then on. He should have gone after (well, preferably BEFORE) that semi-final. But, of course, it doesn't work like that. There were many, many more opportunities of course & he ought to have gone after that very poor start to the following season. He should have gone by that November. His decision making was shot.

He got lucky via injuries and suspensions and a system he didn't want was forced on him and we had a decent run. Then .... the Wiggin at home match when he reverted to his failed system. He should have been sacked at half-time in that game.

Dougie .... after his "worst start any any football team, anywhere, ever". He should have been out by October 2013.

the stuart holden was a sad turning point both v stretford and then after his impressive comeback v villa. as you say with the exception of the arsenal home game, we basically lost - not remembered till I just looked that it was only on the last day that we dropped from 8th to 14th.
as for the following season, I will say that I didnt call for coyle out (DF has broken my virginity in that regard). there were always glimmers of hope with results against relegation rivals, even though a lot seemed to run against us, muamba etc and whilst its all ifs and buts, I'd still say we would have survived (just), if it hadn't been for the pie eaters pulling out those phenomenal set of results. In hindsight, I'd say the end of relgation season was the time for him to go, but again, I'll admit that I thought we'd finished in reasonable form and was confident for our foray into the champship - shows what I know.

The long term and lasting damage that Coyle was doing to the club was painfully obvious.

I still am amazed that people couldn't see very very early into our relegation season what was going to happen. It was so blatant.

The fact that he spent money on the likes of Sordell and NGog and landed us with a wage bill considerably larger than the one he inherited, whilst pretending otherwise still absolutely guts me.

At the time I said if he took us down it could leave us out of the top flight for an extended period, and sadly it looks like that is the most likely thing to happen now.

[Lord Kangana]

What is this long term damage?

Hasn't it just been rectified by a single player?

You're going round in circles chasing your f*cking tail. Coyle f*cked up as a manager, just as many others do, its just a piss poor ready made excuse for Freedman to suggest that its a massive mess. It isn't.

[StaffsTrotter]

Re Coyle, if you had a Tardis and could go to 'the moment' (though frankly, if I had a Tardis I'd just get the winning numbers for one of those huge Euro-Millions draws, but I digress...) it was the Johnny Evans tackle on Holden.

Then the Stoke game, from which he never recovered. (oddly, the win at home v Arsenal straight after being the exception). He looked like a rabbit in headlights from then on. He should have gone after (well, preferably BEFORE) that semi-final. But, of course, it doesn't work like that. There were many, many more opportunities of course & he ought to have gone after that very poor start to the following season. He should have gone by that November. His decision making was shot.

He got lucky via injuries and suspensions and a system he didn't want was forced on him and we had a decent run. Then .... the Wiggin at home match when he reverted to his failed system. He should have been sacked at half-time in that game.

Dougie .... after his "worst start any any football team, anywhere, ever". He should have been out by October 2013.

the stuart holden was a sad turning point both v stretford and then after his impressive comeback v villa. as you say with the exception of the arsenal home game, we basically lost - not remembered till I just looked that it was only on the last day that we dropped from 8th to 14th.
as for the following season, I will say that I didnt call for coyle out (DF has broken my virginity in that regard). there were always glimmers of hope with results against relegation rivals, even though a lot seemed to run against us, muamba etc and whilst its all ifs and buts, I'd still say we would have survived (just), if it hadn't been for the pie eaters pulling out those phenomenal set of results. In hindsight, I'd say the end of relgation season was the time for him to go, but again, I'll admit that I thought we'd finished in reasonable form and was confident for our foray into the champship - shows what I know.

The long term and lasting damage that Coyle was doing to the club was painfully obvious.

I still am amazed that people couldn't see very very early into our relegation season what was going to happen. It was so blatant.

The fact that he spent money on the likes of Sordell and NGog and landed us with a wage bill considerably larger than the one he inherited, whilst pretending otherwise still absolutely guts me.

At the time I said if he took us down it could leave us out of the top flight for an extended period, and sadly it looks like that is the most likely thing to happen now.

clearly too obvious or painful for me. Don't get the sordell / ngog references. In premiership terms chicken feed, certainly wasn't on an elmander scale of eggs in 1 basket for us. Wasn't sordell an u21, pretty good scoring record for watford. Thing I find difficult to forgive is how coyle then didn't use him and pretty much fecked him up. I was certainally more confident of going back up/ or competing to do so, when we first went down than I am now, but given coyles not been here for 18 months I'm not sure we can completely blame him.
(you don't write the speeches for the coalition do you Insane blaming everything on labour ?)

[BWFC_Insane]

Re Coyle, if you had a Tardis and could go to 'the moment' (though frankly, if I had a Tardis I'd just get the winning numbers for one of those huge Euro-Millions draws, but I digress...) it was the Johnny Evans tackle on Holden.

Then the Stoke game, from which he never recovered. (oddly, the win at home v Arsenal straight after being the exception). He looked like a rabbit in headlights from then on. He should have gone after (well, preferably BEFORE) that semi-final. But, of course, it doesn't work like that. There were many, many more opportunities of course & he ought to have gone after that very poor start to the following season. He should have gone by that November. His decision making was shot.

He got lucky via injuries and suspensions and a system he didn't want was forced on him and we had a decent run. Then .... the Wiggin at home match when he reverted to his failed system. He should have been sacked at half-time in that game.

Dougie .... after his "worst start any any football team, anywhere, ever". He should have been out by October 2013.

the stuart holden was a sad turning point both v stretford and then after his impressive comeback v villa. as you say with the exception of the arsenal home game, we basically lost - not remembered till I just looked that it was only on the last day that we dropped from 8th to 14th.
as for the following season, I will say that I didnt call for coyle out (DF has broken my virginity in that regard). there were always glimmers of hope with results against relegation rivals, even though a lot seemed to run against us, muamba etc and whilst its all ifs and buts, I'd still say we would have survived (just), if it hadn't been for the pie eaters pulling out those phenomenal set of results. In hindsight, I'd say the end of relgation season was the time for him to go, but again, I'll admit that I thought we'd finished in reasonable form and was confident for our foray into the champship - shows what I know.

The long term and lasting damage that Coyle was doing to the club was painfully obvious.

I still am amazed that people couldn't see very very early into our relegation season what was going to happen. It was so blatant.

The fact that he spent money on the likes of Sordell and NGog and landed us with a wage bill considerably larger than the one he inherited, whilst pretending otherwise still absolutely guts me.

At the time I said if he took us down it could leave us out of the top flight for an extended period, and sadly it looks like that is the most likely thing to happen now.

clearly too obvious or painful for me. Don't get the sordell / ngog references. In premiership terms chicken feed, certainly wasn't on an elmander scale of eggs in 1 basket for us. Wasn't sordell an u21, pretty good scoring record for watford. Thing I find difficult to forgive is how coyle then didn't use him and pretty much fecked him up. I was certainally more confident of going back up/ or competing to do so, when we first went down than I am now, but given coyles not been here for 18 months I'm not sure we can completely blame him.
(you don't write the speeches for the coalition do you Insane blaming everything on labour ?)

He didn't use them because having spent the last really significant money this club had whilst still in the premiership on them, neither turned out to be worth a dime.

Coyles legacy is that we now have a vastly reduced budget, a vastly reduced wage bill and limited spending power. That is completely down to his management and decisions, the relegation. After that pick the bones out of what we've got.

But Coyle is directly responsible for the reduction in our turnover alongside no meaningful playing assets to trade with and that is real long term damage.

[LeverEnd]

If only we had the foresight of the Insane one. Staffs, shame on you.

[jaffka]

Insane is like a stuck record regurgitating the same pointless nonsense.

Other people have made points to counter what he puts but he chooses to ignore and avoid.

In his world everything is either ace or shit. No inbetween. Anything good that a person has done is ignored as it doesn't fit in with his warped perspective.

[bedwetter2]

Insane is like a stuck record regurgitating the same pointless nonsense.

Other people have made points to counter what he puts but he chooses to ignore and avoid.

In his world everything is either ace or shit. No inbetween. Anything good that a person has done is ignored as it doesn't fit in with his warped perspective.

I know Insane can seem fair game at times but as far as Happy Clappy is concerned I do agree to a large extent:

a) quite why he was given so much leeway by so many supporters is beyond me. Hardly a heroic player, more bit part for two seasons. He was welcomed back as the prodigal son from Burnley ffs. I can count successful players who make successful managers at their old club on the fingers of a dingle's hand.
b) he changed the probably poisonous and dour Megson atmosphere in the changing room in all likelihood which may have accounted for the initial pick up in performances. But that couldn't possibly last, as was proven.
c) the frustration caused by his inability to change tactics and sticking by players who were certainly out of form, if not plain inadequate, began to be picked up by the more perceptive supporters.
d) stories started to emerge of his sophisticated training methods. This coincided with the drop in team performance.
e) the desperate attempts to add anyone to the front line whilst ignoring defensive frailties.
f) his back room "staff" including assistants who would have seemed lost at an under fifteens five a side game.

It was in the October that I remember having had enough of the clueless chancer and said so on this forum. I wasn't the only one. It was plain from the start of the season that the club was heading for another relegation unless he went.

[Athers]

I think its fascinating insight into the human psyche in an amateur psycho-babble kind of way. Its a bit like you hear of people in abusive relationship, where 1% of kindness, makes up for 99% of abuse.

The truly interesting bit is that you'd expect DF to have done something to have built up 'credit' with people to ride out the bumpier times. There are some very forgiving people with a lot of faith out there (yes that can be a good thing).

I'd say that abusive relationship comparison is more like supporting a football club in general than lending support to this particular manager!

[coffeymagic]

I agree with Bobo about the Holden injury and the Wigan game as crucial moments in the history of Owen Coyle.

Holden was arguably the best midfield in the league at the time and if ever there was a case of, perhaps not a 'one man team' but of one player who brought everything together it was him.

Of course we all know Johnny Evans is not THAT kind of player but he got a red card so that's fair enough.

The audible gasp from the crowd at home to Wigan as the teams were read out were proof enough that Coyle was fighting a losing battle.

I don't think we touched the ball for the first 45 minutes or the last 20 and yet Coyle persisted with his line that we did 'enough to win the game' (who esle uses that line?).

Coyle did very well as a person and handled the Muamba collapse with good tact and decorum (mind you even Phil G managed to not put his foot in it during that spell) but being a decent person doesn't make you a good football manager.

I'm not saying you can't be both.

I'm saying Coyle wasn't.

Look, this is old ground isn't it? I would love nothing more than World War Freedman to be over and for him to prove me and the previous almost 180 pages wrong.

Perhaps we will have jam tomorrow?

[BWFC_Insane]

I really don't know why every person seems to think that we have to compare Coyle and Freedman. They are/were doing different jobs.

Owen Coyle inherited Bolton Wanderers with a football related turnover of nearly £60M a wage bill of ~ £45M and 18th in the Premiership.

When Coyle left, Bolton Wanderers had a football related turnover that had halved to ~ £28M a wage bill that during his time had risen to ~ £55M (at time of relegation) and were sitting 18th in the Championship.

Freedman inherited Bolton Wanderers with a football related turnover of £28M a wage bill on the way to being cut to £37M by the first summer and further still since then (I presume) and towards the bottom of the championship.

I think it is entirely reasonable, accurate and fair to hold one man accountable for the damage he did whilst in charge, whilst at the same time acknowledging that the guy brought in to try and repair the damage and loss of income whilst reducing costs still further hasn't perhaps been as good so far as we might hope.

But there is a big gulf between taking a club 20 odd places down the league, halving their income whilst at the same time increasing the wage bill, to not being able to improve a club's fortunes once the aforementioned events already happened before you arrived. In my view at least.

That is my view on the situation, not a defence of anyone. Merely an analysis.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I really don't know why every person seems to think that we have to compare Coyle and Freedman. They are/were doing different jobs.

Owen Coyle inherited Bolton Wanderers with a football related turnover of nearly £60M a wage bill of ~ £45M and 18th in the Premiership.

When Coyle left, Bolton Wanderers had a football related turnover that had halved to ~ £28M a wage bill that during his time had risen to ~ £55M (at time of relegation) and were sitting 18th in the Championship.

Freedman inherited Bolton Wanderers with a football related turnover of £28M a wage bill on the way to being cut to £37M by the first summer and further still since then (I presume) and towards the bottom of the championship.

I think it is entirely reasonable, accurate and fair to hold one man accountable for the damage he did whilst in charge, whilst at the same time acknowledging that the guy brought in to try and repair the damage and loss of income whilst reducing costs still further hasn't perhaps been as good so far as we might hope.

But there is a big gulf between taking a club 20 odd places down the league, halving their income whilst at the same time increasing the wage bill, to not being able to improve a club's fortunes once the aforementioned events already happened before you arrived. In my view at least.

That is my view on the situation, not a defence of anyone. Merely an analysis.