Kiev

[jaffka]

I just wonder if hoboh wakes up each day and looks for stuff that he can be outraged over.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Another feckin thing is this insistence by Hague&Kerry that Russia is abusing international protocols.
So explain to me how a province (Kosovo) which had never in its history been an independent nation (unlike Crimea) and without even the hint of a referendum, but with NATO planes bombing the shit out of the legal country's troops who owned it (Serbia) manages to be legal?
You reap what you sow. Russia are correct, Hague&Kerry are a feckin joke.

When exactly was the Crimea an independent nation as opposed to an autonomous region within another independent nation? It was briefly independent in the 15th century, but the population were then Crimean Tartars. Josef Stalin changed all that. If autonomous regions count then Kosovo was an autonomous region within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following WW2.

Jesus fecking Christ!
Who the feck do you think occupied the Crimean peninsula prior to the Mongol invasion?
It was a Rus principality, an independent nation.
It was also Independent as the Krim Khanate.
The fact the nation was 'gifted' to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) doesn't make it legal.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Another feckin thing is this insistence by Hague&Kerry that Russia is abusing international protocols.
So explain to me how a province (Kosovo) which had never in its history been an independent nation (unlike Crimea) and without even the hint of a referendum, but with NATO planes bombing the shit out of the legal country's troops who owned it (Serbia) manages to be legal?
You reap what you sow. Russia are correct, Hague&Kerry are a feckin joke.

When exactly was the Crimea an independent nation as opposed to an autonomous region within another independent nation? It was briefly independent in the 15th century, but the population were then Crimean Tartars. Josef Stalin changed all that. If autonomous regions count then Kosovo was an autonomous region within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following WW2.

Jesus fecking Christ!
Who the feck do you think occupied the Crimean peninsula prior to the Mongol invasion?
It was a Rus principality, an independent nation.
It was also Independent as the Krim Khanate.
The fact the nation was 'gifted' to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) doesn't make it legal.

plus you've ignored every single other thing I put there. Kosovo was a joke. A joke on the slavs, on Russia. Crimea is their joke back. Ho ho.
But as I've said previously, the interesting bit comes when Putin/Russians decide that Donetsk is worth sending the tanks in for... And to be perfectly honest I can not only understand them doing that, but as the bombs drop, I'd applaud them for it. The West's morals and ethos stink to high heaven in comparison to Putin's avowed aims.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Another feckin thing is this insistence by Hague&Kerry that Russia is abusing international protocols.
So explain to me how a province (Kosovo) which had never in its history been an independent nation (unlike Crimea) and without even the hint of a referendum, but with NATO planes bombing the shit out of the legal country's troops who owned it (Serbia) manages to be legal?
You reap what you sow. Russia are correct, Hague&Kerry are a feckin joke.

When exactly was the Crimea an independent nation as opposed to an autonomous region within another independent nation? It was briefly independent in the 15th century, but the population were then Crimean Tartars. Josef Stalin changed all that. If autonomous regions count then Kosovo was an autonomous region within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following WW2.

Jesus fecking Christ!
Who the feck do you think occupied the Crimean peninsula prior to the Mongol invasion?
It was a Rus principality, an independent nation.
It was also Independent as the Krim Khanate.
The fact the nation was 'gifted' to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) doesn't make it legal.

First of all, relax! It is just a discussion. We clearly disagree on how to interpret the nature of an independent nation and sovereignty. However, the history of the Crimea is a matter of historical record. I would suggest that it was part of Kievan Rus, not independent. It subsequently belonged to Byzantium and parts even to Venice and Genoa (for which they send us the Black Death). It was independent under the Crimean Khanate (1441-1478) after which the Khanate became part of the Ottoman Empire (Yes, I did just look it up). It had another brief period of independence (1774-1783). Thus the only claim to independence was briefly under the Crimean Tartars on two occasions. Stalin deported almost all of these Tartars in 1944, introducing ethnic Russians to the area (he did the same with other areas as well). So any claim to independence based on the prior independence of the Tartars is doubtful. I know nothing much of Kosovo, other than it too was an autonomous region after WW2 before gaining independence.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Another feckin thing is this insistence by Hague&Kerry that Russia is abusing international protocols.
So explain to me how a province (Kosovo) which had never in its history been an independent nation (unlike Crimea) and without even the hint of a referendum, but with NATO planes bombing the shit out of the legal country's troops who owned it (Serbia) manages to be legal?
You reap what you sow. Russia are correct, Hague&Kerry are a feckin joke.

When exactly was the Crimea an independent nation as opposed to an autonomous region within another independent nation? It was briefly independent in the 15th century, but the population were then Crimean Tartars. Josef Stalin changed all that. If autonomous regions count then Kosovo was an autonomous region within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following WW2.

Jesus fecking Christ!
Who the feck do you think occupied the Crimean peninsula prior to the Mongol invasion?
It was a Rus principality, an independent nation.
It was also Independent as the Krim Khanate.
The fact the nation was 'gifted' to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) doesn't make it legal.

First of all, relax! It is just a discussion. We clearly disagree on how to interpret the nature of an independent nation and sovereignty. However, the history of the Crimea is a matter of historical record. I would suggest that it was part of Kievan Rus, not independent. It subsequently belonged to Byzantium and parts even to Venice and Genoa (for which they send us the Black Death). It was independent under the Crimean Khanate (1441-1478) after which the Khanate became part of the Ottoman Empire (Yes, I did just look it up). It had another brief period of independence (1774-1783). Thus the only claim to independence was briefly under the Crimean Tartars on two occasions. Stalin deported almost all of these Tartars in 1944, introducing ethnic Russians to the area (he did the same with other areas as well). So any claim to independence based on the prior independence of the Tartars is doubtful. I know nothing much of Kosovo, other than it too was an autonomous region after WW2 before gaining independence.

The point, Monty, was in relation to the so called international protocols spouted by Kerry (and Hague). I don't care how brief Crimea's independence was, it WAS Independent. It WAS also AUTONOMOUS. Also, during its autonomy it arranged a legal referendum regarding its independence that was subsequently illegally overturned by the Ukrainian authorities - this being an authority that was less than three years old... International law hardly being formed here, nnever mind upheld. BUT THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT IS THAT KOSOVO DOES NOT NOR EVER DID QUALIFY AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ON THESE PARAMETERS.

[Hoboh]

An attempt by the German Green Party to ban Mr Schroeder from speaking in public about Ukraine was narrowly defeated in the European parliament on Thursday.

WTF?

Do the European Parliament really have the power to do this?

If they do then I hope Putin Nukes feckin' Brussels!

Here's the thing mate. If you tried to express your genuine opinions in a sensible manner instead of in this ridiculous Alf Garnett styled Hoboh persona you've created folk'd be more inclined to take you seriously.
Come on, get outta here
Or do you really hope Putin starts the chain of events that will kill everyone on earth over a gagging order? Cos that's one hell of an over reaction don't you think?
It's the EU, NO.

There is however a serious point behind this, are we really in a situation were the European Parliament can 'silence' opinions they or certain partys don't agree with?
People had better wake up quickly, the Yanks are already calling the tunes on the EU reaction to every world event and if it goes 'tits up' with Russia they won't be pouring men over here again.

I just wonder if hoboh wakes up each day and looks for stuff that he can be outraged over.

No, I don't need to look there's plenty just appears

[Montreal Wanderer]

Another feckin thing is this insistence by Hague&Kerry that Russia is abusing international protocols.
So explain to me how a province (Kosovo) which had never in its history been an independent nation (unlike Crimea) and without even the hint of a referendum, but with NATO planes bombing the shit out of the legal country's troops who owned it (Serbia) manages to be legal?
You reap what you sow. Russia are correct, Hague&Kerry are a feckin joke.

When exactly was the Crimea an independent nation as opposed to an autonomous region within another independent nation? It was briefly independent in the 15th century, but the population were then Crimean Tartars. Josef Stalin changed all that. If autonomous regions count then Kosovo was an autonomous region within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following WW2.

Jesus fecking Christ!
Who the feck do you think occupied the Crimean peninsula prior to the Mongol invasion?
It was a Rus principality, an independent nation.
It was also Independent as the Krim Khanate.
The fact the nation was 'gifted' to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) doesn't make it legal.

First of all, relax! It is just a discussion. We clearly disagree on how to interpret the nature of an independent nation and sovereignty. However, the history of the Crimea is a matter of historical record. I would suggest that it was part of Kievan Rus, not independent. It subsequently belonged to Byzantium and parts even to Venice and Genoa (for which they send us the Black Death). It was independent under the Crimean Khanate (1441-1478) after which the Khanate became part of the Ottoman Empire (Yes, I did just look it up). It had another brief period of independence (1774-1783). Thus the only claim to independence was briefly under the Crimean Tartars on two occasions. Stalin deported almost all of these Tartars in 1944, introducing ethnic Russians to the area (he did the same with other areas as well). So any claim to independence based on the prior independence of the Tartars is doubtful. I know nothing much of Kosovo, other than it too was an autonomous region after WW2 before gaining independence.

The point, Monty, was in relation to the so called international protocols spouted by Kerry (and Hague). I don't care how brief Crimea's independence was, it WAS Independent. It WAS also AUTONOMOUS. Also, during its autonomy it arranged a legal referendum regarding its independence that was subsequently illegally overturned by the Ukrainian authorities - this being an authority that was less than three years old... International law hardly being formed here, nnever mind upheld. BUT THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT IS THAT KOSOVO DOES NOT NOR EVER DID QUALIFY AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ON THESE PARAMETERS.

My only concern is that you, by accurately portraying Kerry, Hague et al as wrong in this matter, seem to be saying that Putin et al are justified. Further you use historical justification that I question. Personally, I think they are all wrong in this. There are areas of the Baltic States that have Russian populations but I don't think they should be allowed to separate. Stalin's forced moving of populations has caused a lot of misery for the "movees" - the Russians who moved to non-Russian areas have become a victimized minority, not doubt, but this does not justify Putin trying to recreate a Russian Empire.

[Bruce Rioja]

I hope Putin Nukes feckin' Brussels!

What? Clearly a man that's never dined at Comme Chez Soi

[bobo the clown]

I hope Putin Nukes feckin' Brussels!

What? Clearly a man that's never dined at Comme Chez Soi

... or taken on board how close Brussels is to the UK. The South, admittedly, but nonetheless.

[Hoboh]

I hope Putin Nukes feckin' Brussels!

What? Clearly a man that's never dined at Comme Chez Soi

... or taken on board how close Brussels is to the UK. The South, admittedly, but nonetheless.

[Hoboh]

Indeed, such are the jitters in the three Baltic republics that President Barack Obama has sent six US fighter jets to join Nato patrols over the Baltics as a sign of reassurance. Today will also see a further flashpoint when ageing Latvian legionnaires, who helped the Nazis against the Soviets during WWII, stage an annual march in the capital, Riga.For many ethnic Latvians, the march is a reminder of how the Baltics found themselves caught between two totalitarian systems during the Second World War, and were forced to befriend their enemies' enemies. For ethnic Russians, though, it is a celebration of the Fascism that millions of Russians died to defeat – a sign of how they are now strangers in their adopted homeland, and unwelcome ones at that.

Certainly, in Daugavpils, where most newspapers sold are in Russian, it is not hard to find people who would prefer to be back in Moscow's orbit.
"There are no decent jobs here in Daugavpils," said Yvgeny Andreyev, 34, a local father of three. "Whatever we were promised by the EU, we have not got yet. I have a lot of relatives in Russia, and while life isn't perfect, it isn't bad. It would be good for this part of Latvia to be part of Russia again."

And people wonder why when you poke a bear with a stick it gets angry!!

[bobo the clown]

That will be the next fear, the 3 Baltic states have come on leaps and bounds in the past 10+ years. The people of there loathed the Russians, but there are a lot of Russians who moved there, still there & Putin will be nudging them too. If the West couldn't do much about Crimea it HAS to protect these guys so it's good if they are ahead of the game a little.

[Hoboh]

six US fighter jets that would no doubt be under strict orders not to open fire on any Russian aircraft or possibly start WW3!

We the West and the US in particular have to stop trying to get to a stage were we are camped on top of the Russians and they feel threatend.

[bobo the clown]

Letting them get away with Crimea, with its history and its geography ..
. And population is one thing. Letting them recreate their Balkan control over three sovereign states woukd be appeasement. There has to be a line or they will recreate the iron curtain.

[Hoboh]

Frankly given the draw on western Europe of the former Soviet block countries they are welcome to them back

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

six US fighter jets that would no doubt be under strict orders not to open fire on any Russian aircraft or possibly start WW3!

We the West and the US in particular have to stop trying to get to a stage were we are camped on top of the Russians and they feel threatend.

If they stopped trying to move their borders west then we wouldn't be camped on top of them.

Anyway, the yanks only need 3 F16s to see the Ruskies off. You not seen Top Gun or summat?

[Hoboh]

six US fighter jets that would no doubt be under strict orders not to open fire on any Russian aircraft or possibly start WW3!

We the West and the US in particular have to stop trying to get to a stage were we are camped on top of the Russians and they feel threatend.

If they stopped trying to move their borders west then we wouldn't be camped on top of them.

Anyway, the yanks only need 3 F16s to see the Ruskies off. You not seen Top Gun or summat?

I doubt they would be moving boarders if the EU and the USA where not trying to install centres for the elite all around them.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

six US fighter jets that would no doubt be under strict orders not to open fire on any Russian aircraft or possibly start WW3!

We the West and the US in particular have to stop trying to get to a stage were we are camped on top of the Russians and they feel threatend.

If they stopped trying to move their borders west then we wouldn't be camped on top of them.

Anyway, the yanks only need 3 F16s to see the Ruskies off. You not seen Top Gun or summat?

I doubt they would be moving boarders if the EU and the USA where not trying to install centres for the elite all around them.

WTF are you talking about?

[Montreal Wanderer]

six US fighter jets that would no doubt be under strict orders not to open fire on any Russian aircraft or possibly start WW3!

We the West and the US in particular have to stop trying to get to a stage were we are camped on top of the Russians and they feel threatend.

If they stopped trying to move their borders west then we wouldn't be camped on top of them.

Anyway, the yanks only need 3 F16s to see the Ruskies off. You not seen Top Gun or summat?

I doubt they would be moving boarders if the EU and the USA where not trying to install centres for the elite all around them.

WTF are you talking about?

Standing by to repel boarders, I think...

[bobo the clown]

Russia will, in a false democratic move, effectively annex Crimea this coming week. They will arrange that senior politicians from the eastern Ukraine to invite them in 'for reasons of protection'. That will trim about 30% of the Ukraine off and under Russian control.

The west needs Russian oil & gas. We will make huge noises but ultimately do f'call.

If what's left of the Ukraine is daft enough to goad the Russians there will be NO appetite for a proper fight.


I bet you a pizza ... & I can't say fairer than that (due to my speech impediment).

I'll match your pizza and raise you a glass of red. I don't think we are likely to do anything effective if Russia does play out your scenario - possibly there is actually nothing effective that CAN be done if Putin is determined to do that, at least short of planetary annihilation. But there will be some diplomatic and economic response. And a real freezing and - possibly - a return to cold war sabre rattling.

Well, the starter is sorted out, just wondering what pizza I should have. Calzone, with spicy sausage and a warm tomato sauce atop is always good, though tuna, black olive and lemon to squeeze on is a lingering favourite.

I'd prefer to be buying for you Billy, I just fear not.