Freedman out!

[Prufrock]

Not really. Just playing along for your benefit. He's far from doing well enough for my liking, though.

[bobo the clown]

Not really. Just playing along for your benefit. He's far from doing well enough for my liking, though.

Can we quote you on that ???

You can't stay on that fence much longer though, without doing damage to your ring.

[jaffka]

Calls someone a 'shithouse' apparently for someone else's benefit?

Somebody isn't wired up right.

[Prufrock]

Seeing as you now appear to have figured out what quoting in fact is, you may .

And my ring is very sturdy thank you.

For clarity and context my view is this: He took over a talented, but spineless squad, which shouldn't have got relegated in the first place but was due to a lack of winners in the squad and a cretin for a manager. The squad Coyle left was certainly talented enough to be much higher in the league than it was, running at not much more than a point per game (and at a PPG which would have seen us relegated in 23rd if continued). I also think that squad needed a serious overhaul if it were to be a genuine title contender because whilst the talent was there, the winning attitude required to be successful over a whole season wasn't. DF initially steadied the ship, then we had a poor run followed by an excellent run. At the end of the season I thought he looks good. Shift as much of the deadwood as possible and bring in players with application as well as talent and we'll be fine. We've then been shite up until a few weeks ago, as he ditched both the system and attitude that had been so successful. Recently we went back to that and have had some success.

There are two factors that have stopped me falling on the 'definitely get rid' side of the fence:

1) He's only been here 18 months. I think his plan is to have a big squad of players, all of whom he trusts to apply themselves. I think he values freshness first and foremost, leading him to play less good or well-suited, but 'fresher', players. It's not what I'd do, and even if it's what he wants to do I think he should adapt in the meantime, but I think he feels hamstrung by 'having' to use certain players. I certainly get the counter argument that he should manage the squad of players he has, not the one he'd like to have, but given it looks like he isn't going anywhere I think we might as well wait until after this summer when he won't have that excuse. By the time Coyle left I think he'd signed everyone in that squad, including contract renewals. Freedman has signed a lot of this squad (and doesn't play many of those he has signed all the time - see above) but despite ostensibly having a high wage budget a lot of that is tied up in the likes of Knight, Andrews, Eagles, Lee, Mears etc. Think this summer will see a big clearout and then no more excuses.

2) He's still young. I liked the cut of his jay eye bee when he arrived, young, determined, been away and studied the game, seemed progressive and like he'd try to maximise every advantage we could have. He's quite clearly made mistakes, some fecking big ones, but it's whether or not he learns from them. I've always said I'd rather have a young manager who could be good than another one of the usual suspects who'd been proven to be average, or worse. Coyle's problem was that he never learnt from his mistakes. For some the final straw was picking a midfield without anyone at all who could tackle, for some it was the latest sub-Muamba-and-lose, for some it was seeing KD and Klasnic walk out against Wigan. I'm all right, just about, with Freedman cocking up the progress of last season, but now, after the second time a more positive approach has brought a run of good results, he has to stick with it. I'm ok with occasional changes, such as away to 3rd in the league, but the next game was massive for me, and thankfully he went back to the wonky diamond and a positive approach, albeit he still tinkers with personnel.

If he goes back to being negative (and that's not just the shape, but also the attitude too) I think I'd be done. In any case, if results aren't good after this summer, then I'd be done anyway.

You get all that down for future reference ?

[Prufrock]

Calls someone a 'shithouse' apparently for someone else's benefit?

Somebody isn't wired up right.

No I didn't. You called him a shithouse. I said I prefer a shithouse who takes us sideways to one who takes us backwards. That isn't me saying he is a shithouse, it's me saying that even if he is a shithouse (your words) he's still better than Coyle.

[bobo the clown]

Seeing as you now appear to have figured out what quoting in fact is, you may .

And my ring is very sturdy thank you.

For clarity and context my view is this: He took over a talented, but spineless squad, which shouldn't have got relegated in the first place but was due to a lack of winners in the squad and a cretin for a manager. The squad Coyle left was certainly talented enough to be much higher in the league than it was, running at not much more than a point per game (and at a PPG which would have seen us relegated in 23rd if continued). I also think that squad needed a serious overhaul if it were to be a genuine title contender because whilst the talent was there, the winning attitude required to be successful over a whole season wasn't. DF initially steadied the ship, then we had a poor run followed by an excellent run. At the end of the season I thought he looks good. Shift as much of the deadwood as possible and bring in players with application as well as talent and we'll be fine. We've then been shite up until a few weeks ago, as he ditched both the system and attitude that had been so successful. Recently we went back to that and have had some success.

There are two factors that have stopped me falling on the 'definitely get rid' side of the fence:

1) He's only been here 18 months. I think his plan is to have a big squad of players, all of whom he trusts to apply themselves. I think he values freshness first and foremost, leading him to play less good or well-suited, but 'fresher', players. It's not what I'd do, and even if it's what he wants to do I think he should adapt in the meantime, but I think he feels hamstrung by 'having' to use certain players. I certainly get the counter argument that he should manage the squad of players he has, not the one he'd like to have, but given it looks like he isn't going anywhere I think we might as well wait until after this summer when he won't have that excuse. By the time Coyle left I think he'd signed everyone in that squad, including contract renewals. Freedman has signed a lot of this squad (and doesn't play many of those he has signed all the time - see above) but despite ostensibly having a high wage budget a lot of that is tied up in the likes of Knight, Andrews, Eagles, Lee, Mears etc. Think this summer will see a big clearout and then no more excuses.

2) He's still young. I liked the cut of his jay eye bee when he arrived, young, determined, been away and studied the game, seemed progressive and like he'd try to maximise every advantage we could have. He's quite clearly made mistakes, some fecking big ones, but it's whether or not he learns from them. I've always said I'd rather have a young manager who could be good than another one of the usual suspects who'd been proven to be average, or worse. Coyle's problem was that he never learnt from his mistakes. For some the final straw was picking a midfield without anyone at all who could tackle, for some it was the latest sub-Muamba-and-lose, for some it was seeing KD and Klasnic walk out against Wigan. I'm all right, just about, with Freedman cocking up the progress of last season, but now, after the second time a more positive approach has brought a run of good results, he has to stick with it. I'm ok with occasional changes, such as away to 3rd in the league, but the next game was massive for me, and thankfully he went back to the wonky diamond and a positive approach, albeit he still tinkers with personnel.

If he goes back to being negative (and that's not just the shape, but also the attitude too) I think I'd be done. In any case, if results aren't good after this summer, then I'd be done anyway.

You get all that down for future reference ?

How far down that do you think I got before stopping reading ??

[Prufrock]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

[bobo the clown]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

Not even that.

[Worthy4England]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

Hoboh, said there was the thin end of a wedge, recently.

Reap what you sow.

[Prufrock]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

Not even that.

Ha touché

[Prufrock]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

Hoboh, said there was the thin end of a wedge, recently.

Reap what you sow.

. I don't want the thin end of anyone's wedge!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Oh I see. You're interested in the state of my ring, but not what I have to say?

I'm just a piece of meat to you aren't I?

Hoboh, said there was the thin end of a wedge, recently.

Reap what you sow.

. I don't want the thin end of anyone's wedge!

Might be easier on you than the thick end of...

[Il Pirate]

Seeing as you now appear to have figured out what quoting in fact is, you may .

And my ring is very sturdy thank you.

For clarity and context my view is this: He took over a talented, but spineless squad, which shouldn't have got relegated in the first place but was due to a lack of winners in the squad and a cretin for a manager. The squad Coyle left was certainly talented enough to be much higher in the league than it was, running at not much more than a point per game (and at a PPG which would have seen us relegated in 23rd if continued). I also think that squad needed a serious overhaul if it were to be a genuine title contender because whilst the talent was there, the winning attitude required to be successful over a whole season wasn't. DF initially steadied the ship, then we had a poor run followed by an excellent run. At the end of the season I thought he looks good. Shift as much of the deadwood as possible and bring in players with application as well as talent and we'll be fine. We've then been shite up until a few weeks ago, as he ditched both the system and attitude that had been so successful. Recently we went back to that and have had some success.

There are two factors that have stopped me falling on the 'definitely get rid' side of the fence:

1) He's only been here 18 months.

I think his plan is to have a big squad of players, all of whom he trusts to apply themselves. I think he values freshness first and foremost, leading him to play less good or well-suited, but 'fresher', players.

It's not what I'd do, and even if it's what he wants to do I think he should adapt in the meantime, but I think he feels hamstrung by 'having' to use certain players. I certainly get the counter argument that he should manage the squad of players he has, not the one he'd like to have, but given it looks like he isn't going anywhere I think we might as well wait until after this summer when he won't have that excuse. By the time Coyle left I think he'd signed everyone in that squad, including contract renewals. Freedman has signed a lot of this squad (and doesn't play many of those he has signed all the time - see above) but despite ostensibly having a high wage budget a lot of that is tied up in the likes of Knight, Andrews, Eagles, Lee, Mears etc. Think this summer will see a big clearout and then no more excuses.

2) He's still young. I liked the cut of his jay eye bee when he arrived, young, determined, been away and studied the game, seemed progressive and like he'd try to maximise every advantage we could have. He's quite clearly made mistakes, some fecking big ones, but it's whether or not he learns from them. I've always said I'd rather have a young manager who could be good than another one of the usual suspects who'd been proven to be average, or worse. Coyle's problem was that he never learnt from his mistakes. For some the final straw was picking a midfield without anyone at all who could tackle, for some it was the latest sub-Muamba-and-lose, for some it was seeing KD and Klasnic walk out against Wigan. I'm all right, just about, with Freedman cocking up the progress of last season, but now, after the second time a more positive approach has brought a run of good results, he has to stick with it. I'm ok with occasional changes, such as away to 3rd in the league, but the next game was massive for me, and thankfully he went back to the wonky diamond and a positive approach, albeit he still tinkers with personnel.

If he goes back to being negative (and that's not just the shape, but also the attitude too) I think I'd be done. In any case, if results aren't good after this summer, then I'd be done anyway.

You get all that down for future reference ?

Interesting that both Burnley and Leicester have used 23 players in their teams all season. Consistency or 'freshness'? I know which I'd prefer.

[TonyDomingos]

We have seven games to play: six against sides currently in the bottom half of the league plus Leicester.

IMO, there is no strong reason why we should expect to lose any of the seven (on the assumption that Leicester will be promoted by the time they arrive at the Reebok).

So, I'm setting Dougie an "automatic promotion form" target of 14 points from the remaining games. If he achieves it, then I look forward to next season. If he fails, then I look forward to next season. As I always do.

[Prufrock]

Seeing as you now appear to have figured out what quoting in fact is, you may .

And my ring is very sturdy thank you.

For clarity and context my view is this: He took over a talented, but spineless squad, which shouldn't have got relegated in the first place but was due to a lack of winners in the squad and a cretin for a manager. The squad Coyle left was certainly talented enough to be much higher in the league than it was, running at not much more than a point per game (and at a PPG which would have seen us relegated in 23rd if continued). I also think that squad needed a serious overhaul if it were to be a genuine title contender because whilst the talent was there, the winning attitude required to be successful over a whole season wasn't. DF initially steadied the ship, then we had a poor run followed by an excellent run. At the end of the season I thought he looks good. Shift as much of the deadwood as possible and bring in players with application as well as talent and we'll be fine. We've then been shite up until a few weeks ago, as he ditched both the system and attitude that had been so successful. Recently we went back to that and have had some success.

There are two factors that have stopped me falling on the 'definitely get rid' side of the fence:

1) He's only been here 18 months.

I think his plan is to have a big squad of players, all of whom he trusts to apply themselves. I think he values freshness first and foremost, leading him to play less good or well-suited, but 'fresher', players.

It's not what I'd do, and even if it's what he wants to do I think he should adapt in the meantime, but I think he feels hamstrung by 'having' to use certain players. I certainly get the counter argument that he should manage the squad of players he has, not the one he'd like to have, but given it looks like he isn't going anywhere I think we might as well wait until after this summer when he won't have that excuse. By the time Coyle left I think he'd signed everyone in that squad, including contract renewals. Freedman has signed a lot of this squad (and doesn't play many of those he has signed all the time - see above) but despite ostensibly having a high wage budget a lot of that is tied up in the likes of Knight, Andrews, Eagles, Lee, Mears etc. Think this summer will see a big clearout and then no more excuses.

2) He's still young. I liked the cut of his jay eye bee when he arrived, young, determined, been away and studied the game, seemed progressive and like he'd try to maximise every advantage we could have. He's quite clearly made mistakes, some fecking big ones, but it's whether or not he learns from them. I've always said I'd rather have a young manager who could be good than another one of the usual suspects who'd been proven to be average, or worse. Coyle's problem was that he never learnt from his mistakes. For some the final straw was picking a midfield without anyone at all who could tackle, for some it was the latest sub-Muamba-and-lose, for some it was seeing KD and Klasnic walk out against Wigan. I'm all right, just about, with Freedman cocking up the progress of last season, but now, after the second time a more positive approach has brought a run of good results, he has to stick with it. I'm ok with occasional changes, such as away to 3rd in the league, but the next game was massive for me, and thankfully he went back to the wonky diamond and a positive approach, albeit he still tinkers with personnel.

If he goes back to being negative (and that's not just the shape, but also the attitude too) I think I'd be done. In any case, if results aren't good after this summer, then I'd be done anyway.

You get all that down for future reference ?

Interesting that both Burnley and Leicester have used 23 players in their teams all season. Consistency or 'freshness'? I know which I'd prefer.

Aye, as I say it's not the approach I'd take though I think both can be successful. Burnley in particular have relied on a very small, but very talented squad. You have to be lucky with injuries though. Be interesting to see if their form fades (though I still think they'll have enough) with Ings still out for a fortnight and Vokes going off today. On the oopsie side QPR have underperformed and I think part of that is having about 800 players.

Think given our resources we'd be better going for the smaller talented squad. We've got enough that we could put together a seriously talented squad at this level if we focused on quality. Whilst we're not poor, not sure we can compete with the like of Forest QPR and Watford when it comes to having a huge squad.

It's a brave man who chances it on our luck with injuries though .

Does seem Freedman disagrees though. Hopefully he can get the characters he wants this summer and we can have strength in depth. I certainly don't think it's impossible to do it that way.

[Lord Kangana]

Its getting tiresome now, mostly because its based on such silly reasoning (and the thoughts of a tiny minority of three posters) but what we're doing isn't moving sideways. That we ended up at this level is one thing, that we're incapable of moving back up from this level is proof that what we have is equally incapable as what we had. Pretty much the same squad, pretty much the same results. With a few bizarre signings, selection decisions and tactics to keep things interesting. Unless you're watching.

[Prufrock]

Coyle took over a team at the bottom of the Premiership running at slightly less than a point a game. He left a team 18th in the Championship, running at a bit over a point a game. That's backwards.

Freedman took over a team in 16th at 1.25 points per game. We're now 17th at 1.15. If sideways is to mean anything beyond being exactly the same, that's sideways.

Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no dispute that he was hired to do a hell if a lot better than go sideways though.

[jaffka]

Calls someone a 'shithouse' apparently for someone else's benefit?

Somebody isn't wired up right.

No I didn't. You called him a shithouse. I said I prefer a shithouse who takes us sideways to one who takes us backwards. That isn't me saying he is a shithouse, it's me saying that even if he is a shithouse (your words) he's still better than Coyle.

Did I?

Although I think you are trying to be cleverer than you actually are

[Lord Kangana]

Coyle took over a team at the bottom of the Premiership running at slightly less than a point a game. He left a team 18th in the Championship, running at a bit over a point a game. That's backwards.

Freedman took over a team in 16th at 1.25 points per game. We're now 17th at 1.15. If sideways is to mean anything beyond being exactly the same, that's sideways.

Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no dispute that he was hired to do a hell if a lot better than go sideways though.

No it isn't. And that's why its tiresome, because you know it isn't, but we're wasting terrabites pretending.

[BWFC_Insane]

Its getting tiresome now, mostly because its based on such silly reasoning (and the thoughts of a tiny minority of three posters) but what we're doing isn't moving sideways. That we ended up at this level is one thing, that we're incapable of moving back up from this level is proof that what we have is equally incapable as what we had. Pretty much the same squad, pretty much the same results. With a few bizarre signings, selection decisions and tactics to keep things interesting. Unless you're watching.

What we had before? Good god.

The turnover of the business DF inherited is half that of the one OC took over.

The budget is more than halved.

Those are actual numbers, not the ones you made up in a vain and ridiculous attempt to defend the indefensible and unmitigated disaster that Coyle rained down on this club.

It is one thing bringing about that total and utter, unquestionable disaster. Another thing not being able to quickly repair the aftermath.

Anyone with any sort of common and business sense can see that. Plain as day.